Stuttering and Challenging Inadequacy

Transcript

Kai Caraganis:

It's been hard for me to, to get food at some, at some of the places that I've been to, right. Cause you can't speak and they're looking at you and you're, you're stuck. And so I'm with my child. So you're like, you're trying to, to facilitate. Something. And so that could be at the doctor's office. That could be, so it's like, those are the things that like I really think about is like, how am I able just to perform basic type of functions.

Maya Chupkov:

I'm Maya Chuka and I am a woman who stutters. Welcome to Proud Stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it. One conversation at a time[00:01:00]

Hello, hello Maya here your host of proud stutter I wanted to make a quick announcement before we get into our bonus episode with Kai so we had to change the date of our annual gala slash fundraiser and The new date is Thursday, December 7th, which is just one day after our original date. It will still be in the Lower Haight neighborhood in San Francisco.

We will still have a comedy show with Nina G, stuttering artwork, remarks from Supervisor Dean Preston, a silent auction, and much more. All proceeds will go towards the production of Proud Stutters multimedia audio documentary. On Californians who stutter a big reason why we are putting on this fundraiser is because Proud Stutter has to match the 30, 000 grant that California Humanities has contributed to the [00:02:00] documentary Help us meet our goal by donating today at proud stutter comm slash donate each person who Supports this campaign will be mentioned on our website And every person who donates 65 or more will receive a special gift from Proud Stutter and your name in the credits. This opportunity will only be available for a limited time. Visit ProudStutter. com slash donate to support our campaign today.

Welcome back to Proud Stutter. Today we have a bonus episode. Here with us is Kai Karagannis. He is a person who stutters, of course. He's also a founder. And, yeah, I am so, so excited to have you, Kai. Welcome to Proud Stutter. Thank you, Mai, for having me. So, Kai, my first question is open ended. Tell us a little bit about yourself, and feel free to start anywhere you like.

Kai:

I'm 40 years old this year, so... I'm trying to maintain the younger man look, um, but I, I do have the gray beard, the dad bod. So there's, there's been a few, there's some background to why I, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of, uh, trying to be as fit as possible. I've always felt like somewhat of my stutter, uh, is reflective of, um, not my, my overall health, but the, uh, How I am able to breathe, right?

We all need our breath to kind of get through these areas that are real tight. And I think that I found that working out and running were like an early. way for me to at least feel confident that I did have the breath to kind of breathe through a lot of the stickier parts of the phonetical challenges that I, that we all have, where it's the C L's, the Q's, the R's, right?

Um, so I've always had to have kind of a deep breath. So I got into yoga and kind of exercise in, in my twenties after I, uh, was kind of forced to figure out how do I speak, right? Like what's a functional way to get through my day.

Maya:

Wow. I've never, wow. I'm, I'm just like shook right now because I've had so many conversations.

Um, as you could probably guess of with, with, with people who stutter and never have I heard, um, someone talk about stuttering and health in that way. So that's something that I really appreciate. And I actually just started running a little over a year ago. And I wouldn't say it like I see it helping my stutter, but I do feel like there must be some connection between me running and being more in shape and like how I speak and my, my breath. And it's, it's funny you say yoga, that it's, that's something you practice. I always, when I did yoga, I always found it so hard. To follow, because they'd always tell you how to breathe, but I could never, it was always hard for me to replicate.

And I want to touch back on the health stuff later on, but first, can you talk about how you see the development of your stutter at a young age?

Kai:

I developed my stutter the first day of school. So, this heightened awareness. So, you know, at three, I, I had a stutter as bad as any one you've probably ever heard where I really couldn't speak at all.

So, of course, we live in our heads. We're always trying to figure out, like, what's wrong with me? How do I solve this? The years go, the years go on and on. Um, I saw The King's Speech, which I'm not sure if you've ever seen the movie. And so, I believe I was in my teens or twenties at that point. And, and I, and it was kind of a revelation that I needed to, you know, make my breathing diaphragm, just the mechanism itself, as kind of foolproof or as...

As strong as I possibly could, because as you know, when you start to stutter, you feel your whole body just tighten up and you don't know really how to assess it. And so I, I just kind of turned to meditation and breathing as, as kind of the modalities that I wanted to kind of study and lean into. Um, lunge, you know, uh, I, I, I think long term, those are like the healthier ways to try to fight.

just the anxiety of speaking and the exercise itself. I, I, I know that I rarely speak when I have a buzz, right? So the minute I have a beer or two beers, I won't stutter the entire night. I'm able to speak how I want, make my points when I need to. Um, but it's, it's not, it's not a way of life to have to get buzzed just to get through your day or just to get through your words.

Right. Um, so I think through, I went through a period of my life in my early teens, in my twenties where I was pissed off and kind of troubled and, and was turned towards. Substances to figure out, you know, why I couldn't speak. And after you destroy, you know, that, uh, those years of your life, uh, I guess I was, it was just luck that I came across the King's speech and it kind of, it, uh, it challenged me to, you know, to practice, uh, new therapy to kind of forgive myself.

Um, and, and find a way to communicate. Yeah. I, I, in terms of, you know, any help to you, I think that breathing and at least, at least internally believing that you're, you're capable. of kind of breathing psychologically at least makes you feel good when, when, when you're still stuttering. Right? Cause I'm 40 and I've always thought like, when will this stop?

Like when will I forgive myself? When will I forgive failing through sentences in front of my friends, my family, my colleagues, right? You never, and then you realize that at, at, at my age when you're a father, like you might, you might stutter your entire life. Mm hmm. And so I think that's when I turn to kind of a healthier mindset of just how do I deal with this?

Because I can't kill myself every day with these thoughts and these substances. Wow. So that's, that's a lot there. Like first we, we, first there's the whole substance abuse, which is I think a very common way to deal with a lot of struggles in life.

Maya:

you mentioned, like, after watching the King's Speech, that's when something clicked for you. And now, you just kind of ended your thought around, like, fatherhood and how you're in this kind of new chapter in your life. So, I'd love to talk about those three things. Um, can you first talk about, like, period? Before the King's speech and how you initially dealt with your stutter, um, and, you know, your journey through, um, sub, I don't know how to say it. Substance,

Kai:

yeah. I mean, yeah, . I mean, now that I'm, uh, older and able to kind of reflect on it, uh, you know, uh, [00:11:00] Being a kid is is hard, right? There's a lot of bullying. And so I think from a very young age, I realized that I wasn't able to contribute in the classroom because I couldn't talk. And so where others were able to kind of highlight.

How smart they were, how much they were able to contribute. Um, I wasn't able to pull that off, whatever the reason I just couldn't. And so I think once you, um, once you get kind of laughed out of the classroom enough. It turned me into a, you know, kind of the bad kid, not bad because I was bad because like in school, you're either like smart and you're able to kind of lead the class or you're not.

And you're kind of with the kids that make noise and kind of get into kind of, you know, talk shit. Right. And so I've kind of developed this attitude because I [00:12:00] couldn't talk. And so I had this. You know, a chip on my shoulder. And I think from a very young age that Chip just kind of grew and grew. And as I grew into, you know, a frustrated young man who, um, just couldn't academically perform where I wanted to, that kind of pushed me, like I said, to, to kind of, uh, the outer re, the, the, the outer rim of kind of.

The personality groups, right? So I would just kind of looking for trouble in areas where I probably wouldn't have been. So you start hanging out with the wrong type of people and, you know, you fall into the wrong types of things. And so I think for a period of my life as a younger man, um, and those were my college days, you know, I was probably just trying to medicate the emotions.

And so I don't think, you know, I don't think substance use, you know, it wasn't Coke or shrooms, it was, you know, your college types of drugs where I would, I would smoke pot or I would drink. Um, but that, like I said, that kind of got old after, you know, you graduate in your 21 and you're like, how am I supposed to kind of. How, how, how do I live my life, right? As a, as an adult. So, um.

Maya:

Yeah, um, I can definitely relate, um, as well. I went to school at a pretty big party school in Santa Barbara. So we were like right on the beach and everyone just, you know, liked to, Drink a lot, and yeah, it helped with my confidence when I was in social situations.

I just like didn't really think about my stutter as much, so. Yeah. Um, so that was helpful. And you mentioned watching the King's speech, um, kind of helped like it, something switched where you wanted to seek more help around your stutter through maybe Yeah. So, can you, what was it about the King speech, um, that made you want to work on your stutter more?

Kai:

You know, I don't think I had that aha type of moment until I was in my 30s where I could kind of remember back to that time in my life where I was obviously frustrated as hell. I think I'm a fairly social guy at heart, but I, I definitely have. Introverted, uh, abilities because I just get exhausted from having to speak and having to stutter.

So I've always been a movie buff of sorts. And so I remember just, you know, the transition was, and I think we get there as kind of humans, where we get to these milestones in life where, you know, we've, we've traveled enough miles, uh, in a, in a set of shoes where we're just. We're kind of ready to, to, to, to change the shoes that we're walking in, just the style in which we're, we're, we're, we're walking.

And so I just remember being on the couch one night by myself and watching the movie. And essentially, you know, it's, it's this man that has a duty to himself and to a nation to, to, you know, be able to perform the, the, duties of a king. Um, and so I guess I always wanted to just be adequate, right? At the very least, just be adequate, right?

Be able just to say a sentence in front of a room of kind of people that needed to hear the points I was trying to make. And I'm that type of guy. Like I want to step up to the mic. I want to have things to say. I want my voice to be heard. And so I saw this inspiration through film of, of just, like I said, a better way of approaching this, this task.

And I think people that don't, that don't have a stutter might not know just how much you analyze every speaking event when you are a stutter. Everything and every time you speak is this whole emotional wave of this preparation, this mindset, this. Rehearsal. And I was like, man, this is getting exhausting.

Like, I'm, I'm, I'm tired of being crazy. Like, I'd rather like train my body and my breath, even if it took my entire life to not have this anxiety and this, this stress. And so I think the King speech was just a timely, uh, inflection, uh, and gift from the universe where it kind of struck me at the right time.

And it was like, all right, man, like, You need to, uh, have the courage to, to maybe, you know, put yourself out there, accept that you're going to need to work on things just to be adequate. Yeah, that word adequate really struck me because... That's, that's exactly how, you know, I feel too, like, you just want your whole life to be like, like, I usually use the word normal, but I actually really like the word adequate, because it's like, we just want to be able to do the things we want to do, and we don't want to be held back by something we can't control.

Maya:

Um, And so many thoughts are running through my mind, but, um, I would love if you could talk about what being a father has, has been like, and you have, how many kids do you have?

Kai:

One daughter. One daughter, and d d d is she speaking yet or not yet? Uh, she's kind of babbling. She's, she's two, so. Okay. Two years old.

They're kind of trying to speak. So it's kind of a babble and, um. You know, I had a chance to listen to, I forget the episode, but it was from a parent, uh, and they were having some anxiety about if their kid was going to stutter or not. And I think every parent who's a stutterer has that fear. I know another thing that you may or may not be able to do, but it's still pretty hard for me to read.

Like in, in public or, or, or like trying to read from a book is very hard for me because I have to get the breathing down, right. And I get it right when I'm speaking out of my own head. Cause I have the ability to kind of look in the future enough to get the sequencing of kind of my, what types of breaths will it take to say these types of words?

So reading is really hard because you don't have the chance to kind of understand where you'll need to stop and start. And so I think. As a father, like, one of the things that I've, uh, you know, that's sad is that I can't exactly read to my child because I stutter. Wow. Oh my gosh. I didn't, I never even thought of that.

Yeah, so there's, you know, there's this adequate thing, right, where like, you just want to show your parents that like, you can talk, right? Wow. Because every other kid can just pull off a sentence, right? And you know, I'm a very capable guy. I mean, I'm, I'm smart, I'm healthy. I'm super blessed to have been raised with love in my household with two brothers.

Um, so for all intensive, like if anyone was going to be able to, to, to find a bridge to normalcy, right. That's, that's, um, that would be me. But I think the reason why I came across your LinkedIn post is. Or why it kind of struck me is like, I really have been the only stutter that I've met for a long time.

Like I probably met four or five more in my lifetime, but no one like professionally in a type a finance role. Like I am more like I'm in front of. people that know how to hit the nail on the head perfectly. Um, and so I think it's been hard just going back to fatherhood is like trying to model this, this, uh, lifestyle for your child of being excellent and just like being able to, so it's, Yeah, there's, there's a couple of themes, right?

There's this big fear of mine. Like, am I going to be able to like teach my child what they need to learn because I can't communicate. Right. And that's like a big deal from parent to child, like how you communicate the world is kind of how your child begins to absorb and, and start the process. Um, and then the whole, like, am I.

Will I be successful as an adult with this child right like am I capable of being a father? So, you know, there's just those whole bunch of fears and kind of thoughts that you know run through my head.

Maya:

Yeah Yeah as someone who's considering or thinking about having kids. I'm actually not Really worried about my child stuttering.

I probably should be but I don't know why I'm just not like That's, that's like the farthest thing that, I guess, in the grand scheme of things, like, that's probably the lowest on the list. I think my biggest fear is, like, stability. Like, I really, I had a very Stable upbringing and I would want nothing more of to have to get give that to my Child but stability is not Something that like yes, you you can try your hardest to like give stability, but you you just never know what life And so that's a big fear of mine, way more so than, you know, because if I can get through stuttering, I know my child can.

And yes, it was so hard growing up and I was bullied. But if my child can get to the point where I'm at, Then I'll be, then that won't be a big worry of mine.

Kai:

I, I kind of echo those, those thoughts as well. I don't, I wasn't too worried about my daughter stuttering. I mean, I, I knew there was a chance. Yeah.

It was more like my ability to communicate with her just because I have a hard time talking with anybody. Yeah, that's real. Yeah. Um, Like the reading, like being able to read a bedtime story to your child. Like, that's such a... Or it's like trying to, like, order food. Yeah. Right, like, uh, I saw, I saw one of your podcasts where someone went to the bank and they wrote a note to someone and they called the cops on the person who had a note.

Yeah. And so I've... It's been hard for me to, uh, to get food at some, at some of the places that I've been to, right? Cause you can't speak and they're looking at you and you're, you're stuck. And so I'm with my child. So you're like, you're trying to, to facilitate something. And so that could be at the doctor's office.

That could be, so it's like, those are the things that like, I really think about is like, yeah, how am I able just to perform? Basic type of functions. Um, and reading is definitely one of the things that, you know, you kind of have in your head as a parent, like I'm going to read to my kid. Um, so, uh, uh, it's, you know, it's one of the many things you think about it.

When you're a parent, I think as long as your kid is healthy at the end of the, at the end of the day, that's, that's all that kind of matters. Yeah. So, Mya, I have a question for you.

Maya:

Oh, really? You have a question for me?

Kai:

Okay. Well, just a thought, . Um, so traditionally I've, I've, I've had a bad mouth, like I cuss a ton. And I've been told that stutterers cuss a lot. Oh, okay. I don't think I've heard that. I didn't know, and just as someone who hosts a podcast, I didn't know if you had ever heard that. Or had, had someone tell you that, that they picked up swearing as kind of... It's like the easiest way to express yourself without having to kind of potentially make some of the words that you can't.

Maya

Yeah, I've actually never thought about that. And I don't know, no one's ever really cussed during my podcast. But one of my guests, Nina G, who's a comedian, she swears a lot during her... comedian routines, and she stutters herself, and so she definitely uses a lot of swear words during her acts, so, but that's the only thing I can think of.

Kai:

Alright, well yeah, maybe I'm just the loner that likes to pass. I think you're just weird.

Maya:

I know I'm the same way. How do you connect your stuttering with your personality? Do you see them as like, connected or totally separate? Or like, how would you... You know, talk about your personality as it relates to your stutter. I mean, I, I envy the stutterer that can carve out their identity from their stutter, right?

Kai:

I think it's, it's always been my identity whether I've wanted it to be or not. Um. I, and I can't speak for you or for anyone else, but I know it's really certainly made me hyper aware of all the challenges that people [00:27:00] have to go through in life. It kind of turns you into an empath in my opinion, because you're, you're really dialed into the challenges that you're having.

Uh, and then you, you just, or it's, it's really just, you know, opened by my heart, obviously it's a. The world and I've developed a, uh, somewhat of a chip on my shoulder because it has been something hard that you've had to, you know, that I've had to manage, but at the same time, it's, it's really one of the things that really makes me soft and thoughtful about what everyone else might be hiding beneath the surface or what, what they have to go through just to stand up or to walk or to talk or to, or to kind of listen or to, to do anything.

So. When you can't talk, you use your ears. Right? And, and so I think I've just been good at being, uh, a sounding board for my friends and for family, right? You're kind of, you're able to kind [00:28:00] of use other departments, uh, of, of your kind of senses to, to get through life. Yeah, I karaoke my way through life, so. Oh, awesome. So when did you, when did, did you develop your stutter When you started school like myself or when when did you kind of come to understand that you were struggling?

Maya:

Yeah, I I always Knew I had a stutter since I talked like I don't think I realized it at like three, but I knew I I spoke Differently and it was harder for me to get my words out.

I just learned this but I Was extremely bullied in kindergarten for stuttering and I don't even remember because it's a suppressed memory I'm learning, but one of my best friends who was with me in kindergarten That was a [00:29:00] very vivid memory because it was really painful for him to experience that and I think that's one of the reasons Why he wanted to be my friend is because he saw me Getting made fun of so I don't remember any of that and the fact that he does is kind of scary because i'm like What other memories are? Hiding away Do you think I mean when do you? you ask me is about like who kai was in the you know, the How I who I am as a person and I I remember the bullying so well Um, through middle school, uh, until I, I had the chance to go to a smaller high school. And so that was just like a less, uh, uh, less of a predatorial environment.

The classes were smaller, the teachers more available to kind of regulate. Um, Tell me [00:30:00] what, what was your high school like?

Kai:

I mean, when, when, because I, like you asked me about before the King speech and, and the, and there's always kind of, uh, the rise to the bot, or the rise to the top or, or the fall to the bottom, right?

Maya:

So I, I kind of remember in high school kind of, That being, uh, the peak of my anxiety and when I was really comparing myself to my peers. Did you ever feel that way, kind of, during high school or college? And what did you do to get by? It's hard for me to think of, like, specific memories where I was constantly thinking about my stutter.

I had so many other insecurities in my life that... I'm sure stuttering was part of it, but I think there was just so much [00:31:00] I didn't like about myself in high school, and I was so unhappy, I didn't have any friends. Like, every friend I tried to have ended up being, like, talking bad about me, you know, and it, I don't even remember if it was anything about my stutter, but what I do know is, um, I always wanted to join theater.

The theater group at school and that was something I never did because I'm like, I'm not gonna audition in front of millions or not millions, but like, you know, I'm not going to put myself through an audition. That sounds terrible. And I wanted to be broadcast journalist too. And I never did that. And there were a lot of opportunities.

At my school for those two things and I just so it was more of just avoiding things I always wanted to do that was the hardest And of course being a girl in high school like I didn't date anyone until college because I was scared of dating my whole life, [00:32:00] so Um, and a lot of it had to do with stuttering, but I don't have any like, I just think there's so many suppressed memories I have of stuttering that I still need to work through, but it, when people ask me that, it's so hard for me to talk about because I just don't remember that much.

Um. Yeah. So. That's definitely something I want to eventually see a hypnotherapist about.

Kai:

Yeah. Um, so. I think you, you begin to unlock those memories the older you get. I mean, uh. Yeah. Like I think, uh, for me at least, you know, I, I really.

I definitely was, was, uh, shredding through the years that were hard, right? So I, I didn't want to think about anything. I didn't want to try to look back and understand [00:33:00] until, until, you know, you get married and you started to have kids and you start to really, uh, section out your, your life and you're like, Oh, these were my childhood years.

These are my high school years. These are my college years. This is the years before my wife. This is my marriage. This is my marriage before my child. This is my child. So I think, uh, you know, I've been able to dissect a lot of the the feelings that you, that you probably, that we've all had. Right. Of just trying to unpack all those thoughts and all those emotions and instances where it was just chaos and depression and kind of self hatred.

Um, so I, I certainly hope that you, you do take time to forgive yourself. Um, [00:34:00] but it might not be the right time. Like, I mean, it happens when you're kind of at the next phase of your life and you're finally comfortable with it. Unpacking all the shit from your 20s or your teens, right? Which is a lot of feelings You know a lot of deep deep deep emotions.

Maya:

So yeah so Is there anything? Because i'm sure You know you there was a lot going through your mind before this Interview, is there anything?

Kai:

That you want to share that you haven't gotten a chance to yet. I thought about that like what? What were going to be the themes of, of my stuttering. Right. And that was, that's super hard because, uh, you know, you, you, you want, it's definitely a handicap and I think people that don't have a stutter might not understand, uh, you know, what it takes just to [00:35:00] get up every day and face the world, cause you have to talk your way.

That's what being a human, it kind of truly is, right? We have the ability to, to speak. Um, but also the resiliency of everyone that you had on your show, just how, how inspiring that, that, that, that is. So, you know, I, I guess, you know, one of the things I wanted to, uh, to highlight was just, uh, As a stutter, uh, forgiving yourself and accepting yourself, I, I think after 40 years, I've done a lot of hating myself and trying to ask myself, you know, why me, you know, why, you know, um, everyone has their challenges in life and, and I think, uh, [00:36:00] the, the people that accept that and just accept the challenge that they're faced with, It's probably how I've, how I've gotten through my life is as well as I have.

And, and although I've, I've, I've, I've struggled for most of it, um, I think it's, uh, it's, it's important for all of us. To keep our heads up and just remember that there's others out there that have it worse, um, and to, to be as available as you can. I mean, I can tell you that when I saw your podcast and I was like, there's a podcast for stutters, I was like, I'm not the only one.’

Um, so I, I appreciate you first and kind of foremost for having me on.

Maya:

And that's it for this episode of [00:37:00] proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by Augusto Diniz and our artwork by Mara Ezekiel and Noah Chupkov. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at www. proudstutter.com. And if you like the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast. Want to leave us a voicemail? Check out our show notes for the number to call in. More importantly, tell your friends to listen too. Until we meet again, thanks for listening. Be proud and be you.