Navigating Stuttering, Poverty, and Racism in the American South

Transcript

Maya Chupkov:

Next week is proud stutters annual Gala and Community comedy night. It's not too late to support proud stutter in our mission to destigmatize stuttering all proceeds from the gala will go towards the production of an audio documentary on the diverse stuttering experience the more stories on stuttering. We create an Elevate. The closer. We are to a future we're stuttering is seen as just another way of speaking not something that has to be fixed. The gala takes place on Thursday December 7th at peacock Lounge in San Francisco, visit proudstutter.com/gala to buy your ticket today for those of you who cannot attend but would still like to support the documentary click on the Donate button on the right hand corner on the top of our website at proudstutter.com.

Thank you so much for your support. Okay now on to the show.

I’m Maya chupkov and I'm a woman who stutters welcome to Proud stutter a Show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it one conversation at a time.

Welcome back to Proud stutter. I'm your host Maya chupkov. And with me today is Isaac Bailey a person who stutters a former journalist author and professor in his most recent book my brother moochie regaining dignity in the face of crime poverty and racism in the American South. Isaac writes about his own story of growing up with the stutter as well as what his family endured after his Elvis brother killed a man and was sentenced to life in prison Isaac.

Welcome to Proud stutter.

Isaac Bailey:

Well, yes like and how I'm like these two I actually just like you pray.

Maya:

I think I'm so excited to speak with today, I don't know if you know this about me, but I Am very passionate about of course these stigmatizing stuttering but also destigmatizing those who are incarcerated and have come out of the criminal justice system. And I know that is something that you've written a lot about especially in your most recent book and we also have journalism in common too. So there's just so much that I'm exciting that I'm excited to dig in with you and so I would like to really go back to the beginning and I would love if you can share with our listeners. What what was it like growing up with the stutter in the South?

Isaac:

Yes. Yes. It was hell. Oh my God, honestly. Yes, like and I'm because like I was born in like 1972 in terms of like in a hospital in Charleston, South Carolina, you know, like actually wear like the Civil War began Etc. We actually grew up. So like in like this really really small town called. Oh my day I thought actually was a sort of like a lot of segregation Etc. We started we're like actually died really poor. I am sort of like one of 11 kids.

Yes, right, right and also turns out that like I sort of like am the fifth oldest and so it's sort of like actually sort of like actually just being in the middle is like a weird kind of thing. At that part of like how I'm at least by itself. And yet they're also do I actually like stuttering? Sort of like actually made me feel. A sort of my very very alone sort of like even in that really had I'm sort of love. Had a sort of like large family it was that really really hard to I'm talking about I'm least I guess you talk about or admits because in terms of that, like I said, like actually have like this older brother. Doesn't turn inside that like who also stuttered.

I had like yet though like in terms are that like we sort of like never ever really talked about it. I'm like at least like at least like actually back then like in terms of that like it actually felt I had like that kind of shameful.

I mean at least like speaking with the stutter if you start like are hot like a sort of like black dude in the South right just like in terms of sort of that. I have like there are sort of like certain stigmas how like what's like actually come with that alone? Yeah. Yes. I can turn the sort of that like where as like you're sort of like intellect. Is like already sort of questioned and then so I'm at least a lot actually put a severe stutter on top of that. yes, um, it actually made it tells yes, I think

Maya:

you're a Harvard Niemann fellow and there's a video online of you doing a speech at one of their reunions and one of the things that really struck me in watching. This is you had this phrase kind of ingrained in you at an early age. Isaac is too dumb to talk. Can you talk about what comes up for you when you hear that?

Isaac:

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Nothing in terms of that. Like it always was the like ultimate kind of like trump card and essentially yes, and yes, and so like essentially in terms of that like even though in terms of that like I was like actually very athletic. It's like and also started like actually that very good. To have I'm looking to grades and writing. Yes, like terms of how I had like those things. And yet though I had like a soon as I'm like anyone had I could like actually talked me.

I saw that actually with God and myself about actually with that chant. It's like oh so like just like of sort of like actually being sort of like too dumb to talk. In terms of that I had I'm like I thought about actually did not feel as though that I started by actually had any real. Real sort of my comeback board just like also like any kind of like real response to it. Um, in large part I had had my simply because like I had really internalized like that kind of on my idea anyway. we actually and also guys like turns out that like I too was like already so like actually wondering that's like in terms of that. Like if I saw that actually really was just too dumb to talk. Yeah, just say and also because sort of actually just being It's like a sort of like severe stuttering back then it. definitely in terms of that like my soul like only just like my sort of like only sort of like real. we also have

We all sort of like up close and personal kind of that I have. Had an example as in terms of that like and adult stuttering. And I'm a sellable actually was like this guy named named Smiley doesn't turn so that like he sort of. He sort of like actually was like this janitor had I'm at least like in our school. His study was it's like actually was like even sort of like actually worse than mine was yes. I mean like it was really? Extreme have at least I guess you when it came to the teachers had on my Facebook. I actually just treated him like a child essentially. And so like for me like in terms of that like actually just looking at I was like actually just horrified. Like I should just thinking.

Yes, I can terms of sort of that. Like that actually would be my future. It's like that is what yes, it's like that. That kind of thing like actually really really I'm a scared me and shamed me. A lot.

Maya:

Yeah. I remember just growing up like I I just always had this fear that I would never. Like be able to do a lot of things like I wouldn't get married or you know, like I wouldn't yeah exactly. I wouldn't find someone that like could deal with my stutter like I wouldn't be able to like be successful. Yeah. I I definitely yeah, I definitely Feel that in your story a lot and you're it like it you're open about your stutter now and so I'm wondering like what was that Turning Point? Like because I'm sure like, was it a specific moment something you were going through in your life like tell us about that shift for you?

Isaac:

Yeah. Yes. Like it actually was a song like very sorry about it. It's like it was a very sort of like slow shift for me as in terms of that like it actually took years. And so like for me I have my bad thought about my shift started what actually happened after college. Well, yes and also because I returned so that like as I was like actually leaving college and I was trying to get a job, of course Etc and of course like turns like you actually try to interview which you know is not easy, right? Yes, so then so and so like At first I can turn so that like I would like I should go into interviews and just like and also like terms about that like I would like actually not say that I am a stutterer just like in terms of that like I would like I should like stutter. a lot I mean like a lot.

I'm started like in that interviews and so like essentially it doesn't turn so that like I thought about actually missed out on talk about like several side like job opportunities, like that's because of my stutter nothing in terms of that had at least like actually what I thought actually finally saw that actually got into my first Newsroom. And then I thought about actually had to do interviews Etc. Yes, like which was also Hell, by the way, um, that's first. Just I think it was my best sort of like subtle. This sort of out like subtle shift. I'm I had uh, I'm like at least like actually from me at first. Yes like it was about my sort of like third year on a job. I turned so that had like one of my editors like actually approached me. Yes, like and I can't actually sort of like she gave me this. Sort of about my double edge kind of compliment.

Because I can turn the sort of that. I mean these sort of like on like one hand like terms of that like had I'm like he was saying that like I was like actually doing my job well. right Yes, writing excited like all those other things.

And yet though like in terms of that like he was like also saying just like in terms we started that like you sort of like actually have to deal with the stutter thing. I mean, it's like actually going forward. Am I going to like actually just like in order to like actually really advanced?

It's like essentially like in terms of that like they sort of like actually sent me. I'm at least like actually to this sort of like 19-day had like intensive I thought about like Therapy Program. I had I'm at least like in Virginia. Yes, I and ask for the fact that terms of that like I talked about even talk about actually documented my sort of like actually journey through it as well. Yes, like all of that happened.

And then so sort of like after I sort of like actually got out of that like in terms of that like buy something like fluency. This was actually was like much much better. I mean, he's like actually for like the next. Next song about my two weeks or so.

And then like after that Crossing turns out that like it actually just went back to normal. Yes, I guess always have the game against that right? Yes, right, right. Yes, and then so so like after that happened. And then just like in terms of that. Like I just think that my kind of like stubbornness sort of like that as in terms of like actually just kicked in.

And then like I just sort of like actually just said I'm totally like screw. It just turns out of that like I am a stutterer. Yes. I am. Also the fact like terms of that like, I am it. Doesn't in terms of something like I am simply not like at least these sort of like 99% Yes, and then so so like I saw that it's like I saw a lot. It's like I thought about actually have been that very open with it since then pretty much like

Maya:

why did Journalism, because I think for a lot of people who are figuring out their career might think that could be an intimidating job for a person who's stutters. So how did you kind of push through maybe the doubt and like Want to do to journalism

Isaac:

oddly for me. I have decisions might sound weird like my sort of instead of sort of I'm like at least like I see led me into journalism. Yes. I can terms of sort of about yes. I can turn the sort of like first like in terms of sort of that like, I mean Lisa like initially like in terms of that like actually being able to write And so I actually gave me my voice back early on essentially. And yet though like in terms of sort of had.

At least these started like more kind of direct portion of it. It's like in terms of that. Like I sort of like actually had like his friend that's like inside like college like who actually saw that I actually had this so like friend it turns out of that like who sort of actually was like speech therapist. They thought about actually that hooked us up just like in terms of that my I thought about also sort of like if you had like some sort of like sessions with her how I might get those sort of like actually with her. Yes, I can turn to talk about my she. she saw the she started like was like actually like more sort of like actually focused. I had a nice like on me. So I actually just trying to like adjust I had I thought about anything with the stutter right one.

It's like and also though like in turn so that like she sort of a she sort of like actually was like this church friend. Yes, I can turn so that I had these like and editor. So the I had my least sort of like at the sort of I my largest sort of like newspaper in Charlotte and then so like essentially like in terms of that like she sort of like she told him about me. It's like am I writing that's like in terms of that like he sort of like actually let me start start to something like actually that freelance I have he's like actually for the newspaper.

And then so sort of like actually from there. And started like how I thought about actually got in a journalism.

Maya:

Yeah, if you've if you've listened to a lot of my episodes, you know, a lot of people know that journalism was actually my dream job for a while didn't quite work out but I still get to work with a lot of journalists in my day job. So I feel very lucky in that.

Isaac:

Yes. Yes. Yes like and also for me like your terms of for like the past like 25 years so and yet though for me just like terms of that like I still think at least these sort of out like lessons that I have learned. So I'm like actually from my stutter itself. Yes, I can turn so that like have sort of like actually been like the These thought about like most sort of my useful tools like in my journalism and also in teaching as well at least so actually when I was like actually dealing it actually made me pay attention to people more I would like always stand back and like I would like always like actually be able to listen to people more and also to sort of like actually understand them more at least like those sort of like listening skills. Now just like our sort of like actually crucial Parts. It doesn't in terms of that like of my journalism and teach it now.

Maya:

So I think I'd love to get more into your book my brother. Moochie. Can you talk about what sparked the idea and just talk about the book in case our listeners are interested in a sneak peek? Yeah.

Isaac:

Yes, like in terms of sort of that just like I started to like actually start the interviewing and researching so yes for that book about sort of like 25 years. There's like in terms of something that like after like my sort of like oldest brother sort of like Nothing in terms. We started that like actually talk about actually went to prison. I had like these four or something like murder and I was like nine years old.

And so so like at that point like in terms of that like my son like Sutter I'm like it was like actually that showing itself more and yet they're like in terms of that like it's over. I really really got severe as soon as sort of just like as soon as sort of I mean he actually went to prison

And so like for me like in terms of that like he sort of like actually was like this kind of like superhero.

Had I had I'm at least like to me back then he thought about actually had thought about actually kept these sort of like bullies at Bay.

Where yesterday and also like in terms of that like she sort of like actually would like also started like actually at least to like actually stop my dad. I'm like least from Elise from sort of like actually trying to beat my mom Etc like also things and so and so like essentially like in terms of that, I mean at least other like I see once he went away that's like in terms of that like I felt

Yes, I can turn inside of that like my sort of stutter sort of like that. I'm essentially something about actually rooted itself in. Then just like in terms of study that like those sort of like events.

I'm sort of like actually combined that's other actually with our overall situation like in terms of like actually being black. Yes. I and also something like in Yes, like in terms of that I had like had on these other actually being like in like the South.

Like I should be poor and like actually growing up in this trailer. Well yesterday and also started by actually watching my song like Mom so I thought God I'm at least like actually struggle had on my least like actually worth like domestic violence like all of those things. I'm like combined.

They thought about actually did not cause my stutter and yet thought I can turn some of that like it is really really difficult at least to like actually try to have my disentangle at least these sort of out my trauma.

I'm at least from all of that. That's all the like actually from my stutter and he's like actually with the book that's like in terms so that like it actually tries to deal with like that.

Like that, so like Nuance just like and also with the fact that in terms of something that like actually sort of like inside of our several chapters in the book. I can turn saw that like I sort of like actually saw about actually talk about my stutter.

I had I had I mean at least and thought about my great detail. I'm like, I'm actually trying to get across like that sort of like complexity. Yes. I can turn this other like actually

Yes, I can turn we started like actually growing up to about like black and poor. I have like these thought of our like these sort of like massive sort of like actually factors in my life. And yet those sort of like my stutter. and sort of like actually was like these sort of I had like these sort of like most most thought about my challenging Factor.

Of all just like in terms of that like I thought I actually tried to get the reader. I mean at least to like actually see. Oh my bad type of complexity.

Maya:

Oh my gosh that makes me want to read it even more. I'm so excited. Yeah that that sounds super interesting and something I'm very curious about so you are a father and you've been married for 25 years. And yes, and when we first kind of connected on of all places Twitter slash X whatever it's called now and you had mentioned when we were exchanging messages that your wife had already heard about proud stutter and I just thought that was so cute that your wife is like trying to learn about stuttering. So yeah, I'd love to just like Yeah, like if if you can just talk about like your relationship with your your wife, it sounds like she's super supportive. And

Isaac:

yeah, yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I can turn the subject like this sort of I'm like stuttering Journey something like actually been just like actually had been. A my joint Journey. Yes, and so Justin so sort of like essentially like in terms of that like actually before yes like our marriage that's like in terms of sort of that. Yes, I can turn to sort of that like my sort of I started sort of. Yeah. Yes, like it actually was a bit of a barrier. I mean at least for something like actually getting together. Yes, and also because sort of like that I'm least like I I'm at least like At first I can turn so that like actually when we were sort of like late teens like early twenties like in terms of that like she sort of like actually struggled. I'm like at least to like actually like understand it at least these sort of like image. Yeah, just like I've sort of like actually trying to like actually date a stuttering dude. Yes. I'm like, it actually took a lot of maturity. Yes. I can turn sort of that like weights like actually had to It's sort of like actually unfold Target over years. Yes. I put it that way. Yes, like and also because in terms of sort of that like she too sort of like actually was like actually just trying to find herself. Like actually dealing with her own stuff. Right, of course that's in terms of that. Like it actually was just like a start like better but barrier and then sort of like yet though, like in terms of sort of like my eyes are like actually just think that she actually died on it like me enough or love me enough. Yes at the end so sort of it. Yes, and then sort of like our sort of joint kind of stubbornness.

So I actually just kept us like I should going forward essentially. Yes, then we got together and married married Etc. Like all those other things and like actually in terms of that like hit.

It's all about actually has been sort of had. I'm sort of like yesterday very very good. It's like and also with that in terms of that like she so like she has been that very supportive. Yes, and then so sort of like fairly recently like in terms of that like she sort of actually has been trying to doubling down. It's like on top of actually just trying to sort of like actually understand me even more now. It's only essentially like in terms of that like as you told her

yes, like in terms of like I thought about actually did not see the need that I'm at least for something like anymore sort of like stuttering therapy accelerant like all those other things right just like in terms of that like I thought about actually got that very very comfortable.

Hot I mean at least with like actually so like actually being a stutterer. Yes, like and also the just like and also with the fact again like in terms of that like I am sort of like very open about it as in terms so that became my writing that's an also like in my teaching and speaking like all those other things. Yes, like I think that like her so like final struggle with it just like was like actually trying to find that's like in terms of about like her. Peace. So like actually with my piece.

Right, at least like I think that eBay or part of her. That's like actually thought that yes, I can terms of sort of that like my sort of like piece sort of actually with my like stuttering just like in terms of actually was sort of like akin to sort of like actually giving up. Yes, and it's so sort of like actually for me like turn so that like I actually had to try to tell her

Yeah, I think in terms of sort of like I sort of like actually am sort of like actually doing how about my teeth are my opposite of that like in terms of that like what I am doing.

Is like actually just to sort of like actually I'm embracing at like my full self. It's like and also started about actually just being okay with who I am damn it, right? Yeah.

I'm just like in terms of that like she sort of like actually has been sort of how he's like actually sort of like I said looking for that resources like in order to just like in order to like actually better understand my peace with my stuff.

At least talk about actually talk about actually during her research. It's a yes, like just like just like it started like actually when she actually came across like proud stutter and she saw the wife actually has been listening since then.

Maya:

Yes. I'm so glad your wife found proud stutter and that worship connected to before we Hop Off. Is there any last minute thing you wanted to share anything? We didn't cover during the interview.

Isaac:

So like what I have sort of like she's figured out is exceedingly important just like in order to like actually judge myself like and to sort of like actually assess myself more like in terms so that I actually want to figure out

As my least sort of like how to be sort of like actually like more sort of like honest with myself if it is sort of like I should just too hard for me. So like in like the moment right now.

Yes, I can turn something. Like I am sorry about like much more likely just like in order to like actually just started to like actually that pull back some and yet though. I'm a yet though for me like in terms of that like that. So like actually has been a massive change.

Yes, like and also because I can turn inside that like I spent I'm like so much of my life. So like yes, like actually trying to that prove just like in terms of sort of that. Like I am not that's like in terms of that like I

I am talking about my capable. It's like I'm sort of like actually being articulating and speaking Etc. Just like in terms of stuff that like I said like actually pushed myself. All the time. I'm at least through sort of I really really like stressful that moments had had like a witch I which I like probably had I should not have had unlike in order to like actually just try to like actually hide from myself what I do now though, it doesn't turn so that like I thought like actually speak.

That's all about actually when I want to speak and also like in terms of that. My eyes are like actually don't speak. So like actually when I don't want to speak just like in terms with something that like that sounds Simple and straightforward just like in terms of that like that has made. all the difference in the world

Well, yes, they and also because like in terms of that like it actually means that I sort of look it. Yes, I can in terms of stuff that like I sort of like actually started like it's like I started like actually like finally trust myself. Yesterday and also sort of just like and also sort of like actually no at least without doubt. Well, yes, I can terms of sort of that like my voice matters. Well, yes, I can terms of something that like on my side like high Saturdays like and also like on mine sort of about my low starter days.

Maya:

I love that. What a great way to end thank you so much Isaac for being on proud stutter. I've I wish we had more time. But yeah, but yeah, thank you so much.

Isaac:

Thank you very much. Having me on.

Maya:

for this up edited by me my tube cough. Our music was composed by Augusto Denise and our artwork by Mara Ezekiel and Noah chukov. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode visit us at www.proudstutter.com, and if you like the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast want to leave us a voicemail check out our show notes for the number to call in more importantly tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening be proud and be you.