Can States Of 'Flow' Have A Positive Impact on Stuttering?

Transcript

Maya Chupkov:

Hi I'm Maya Chupkov and I'm a woman who stutters Welcome to proud stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it. one conversation at a time Hi, everyone, welcome to our National Stuttering Awareness Week bonus episode, we have a special treat for you today. I have Jane Delvin. Here she is a researcher at Plymouth University, exploring how flow states are experienced for people who stutter. Jane is also someone who has a stutter herself and we met early in my proud Stetter journey. Jane, welcome to the show.

Jayne Delvin:

Hi, my this is delightful. I'm so honored that you've asked me Thank you.

Maya: 

So Jane, can you give our listeners a little bit of background around you and how your stuttering journey has been?

Jayne:

Hideous mainly, like an awful monster that's been locked in the basement kind of whining and crying for almost my entire life. So I've had a stammer, I don't know whether there's ever been a point when I haven't had a stammer as you can hear it if I come across as fluent. And I've used the most sophisticated coping strategies to come across as as fluent. But one interesting thing is that my dad had a really what used to be called a profound stammer a significant stammer and he struggled incredibly. And he'd have these flare ups and outbursts of like throwing his hands up and stomping around, it was really bad. And so I think that that kind of influenced me a lot to kind of hide it really. I've been fortunate enough to have quite a successful time. But the inner emotional struggles has impacted my life greatly. Now about a year ago, it was international stammering Stuttering Awareness Day where I first came in contact with your proud stutter my own My life changed. And I was I've been studying for a master's in psychology. And I learned that stammering was located in parts of the brain, which I never knew. So I've lived over 50 years thinking it was something that I've done, and something some emotional thing, something that I could have. If I'd have worked on myself, so psychologically, I wouldn't have had a stammer, which I now know isn't is isn't true. And now I'm on the journey of discovering my own voice, I think and kind of the sadness about it more than the anger and connecting with others like yourself, which has been particularly yourself with proud stutter. It's been the most life enhancing thing I think I've ever done. And tonight is the first time in my life that my stammer might actually be benefiting me in some way, because I'm speaking to you.

Maya:

Ah, that's so sweet. Thank you, Jane. One of the things we both bonded over was our love of dancing, and how dancing has really made a positive impact on our lives. And the word that comes to mind is like a sense of freedom. And so I'm wondering if you can talk about dance and how it connects with your stutter and also how it's connects to your interest in your current research.

Jayne:

Yeah, I've always danced, I've always moved, I can remember being a very, very small child, probably school age, so under six under five even, and just being just twirling around the living room over and over and over again. Absolutely loved it. But one of the most important things about it is that my I mentioned my dad, my mom and dad were beautiful ballroom dancers. I don't just mean that they were a little bit talented. They were really beautiful. And they used to compete. And it was the only time that I saw my dad being what appeared to be self confidence, and that one and just comfortable and shining. And I used to just watch him transform from this angry man from work in his overalls into this really quite handsome, sophisticated man that had the room as back and back and call it So I've always danced. And over the years, I've found that the most kind of cohesive as the only word at all worked with things have always just had this deep sense of feeling that one feeling right. And on reflection, when I discovered and came out as a stammer basically realized that the most authentic periods of time have been with a movement and dancing, particularly partner dancing, and I reflected back on moments after dancing, not just dancing. And the only time that I felt as though the person that I was discussing things with or talking to, regardless of my stammer or not, knew me and there was no misunderstandings, it's been I've had a life of misunderstandings, people just not understanding where I'm kind of at. So just the hell kind of join up of the body, the freedom, the lack of tension and communication. So I've communicated through movement as well, I think, and just the absence of self consciousness of being wrong with being something wrong with me, I think, then that the communication with the partner or partners, the physicality, the connection with the floor, or with the music, even through performance, it was almost been like another reality. And that reality has been poetic and beautiful. Whereas the rest of my life was like Beauty and the Beast, really, that's what my dancing has been. And the standard has been the beast, literally, ugly, horrible. crinkly, spiky things. So I've always done salsa, modern, Jive contemporary. Yeah.

Maya:

Well, that was beautiful. When I think of dancing, my immediate image is this naturalness. And this just ability to communicate in like a totally different way that is so separate from from speech. And so in my experience with my dancing, being able to do my own dancing, because I used to do a lot of dancing, where they would teach me that the moves, but it was really in my freedom of expression and able to do my own dancing, and just turn on a song and just start moving. That's where I feel like I felt at one, and really just connected mind, body and soul. And so your story about your dad and your parents, and you really resonates with me. And sometimes if I'm having a really bad day, I turn on a song and start dancing. And it really, it really helps me kind of center myself,

Jayne:

I think I'm kind of curious, but I haven't been able to find this out yet. I think it's worth looking at the creativity and particularly movement and dance, or an activity that may resemble a certain poetic nurse within the body. And I'm curious about it's not just imaginative, although that's, that's a lot of it. I'm curious about the connection with the brain and the physicality. And I'd love to know what that is doing within the brain. And whether there's actually something about the physicality that deactivate or activate, I don't know which. And it's the imagination as well as the free of tension. But I suspect, which is a nice segue perhaps into what we're talking about. I do suspect that in those moments, there's a sense of a flow state, we're entering a flow state at times, and within that flow state, there's the otter enjoyment, I don't just mean like enjoying a packet of crisps, because that can be lovely, or you don't call them crisps, or chocolate. There's, there's, there's a different energetic kind of connection within within the brain. And that's what I'm, that's what I'm hoping that in the future years we'll be able to find out more about, but I do wonder whether there's something particular about the physicality as well, about the physicality of how we're moving the body mind connection, which is so popularized, but I do wonder whether there's something intrinsically neuroscientific going on there as well, but I'm afraid I don't know that yet.

Maya:

And that kind of leads me to my next question about like, why I know you touched about it a little bit. But when was that moment when you knew you wanted to explore this research around flow? Because I know like this, this topic was in traduced when I was is taking psychology and college but it was just a very brief, you know, part of what I was taught. So I'm wondering, like, can you walk us through that the moment where you really were like, Oh my gosh, I want to explore this more.

Jayne:

Yeah, it was my supervisor at uni. In the University of Plymouth, Dr. Helen, Helen Lloyd, who brought the concept of flow to my attention. I've never really explored it too much. But I knew the concept of flow, because you can often speak about it within dance and contemporary dance, but I hadn't studied it. I didn't know where it had come from. But the minute that she spoke about a flow state, I knew that I had been experiencing flow states throughout my entire life in terms of movement and dance. And at the same time, I was then like I said, I was coming out as a as a, as a stammer, I was coming out. So I say stammer, and I know that other people say stutter, but I tend to refer to myself as a stammer, because it has like this hard kind of jackhammer sound to the words dama. And I think I kind of block as opposed to trip to kind of sound I kind of block it. Anyway. So I did some research, read all the articles, read all the articles from 2000 or 1996. And thought, oh, Lord, Lucky Lord. I probably shouldn't have said that. Do we need more articles that tell us how difficult it is in our life as stammers? And what negative effects it has? Could there be a time that we begin to address more positive positive positivity and more ways of allowing our speech the way that it is, which is hugely challenging a thing. So I decided I wanted to do something of worth a while. And in the literature, my personal feeling was that there was still a drive towards coping, and I felt coping in and of itself implies there's something wrong to cope with. So okay, this is, this is a little bit debatable, controversial,

about acceptance of a stammer. And I was just personally thinking, how can you accept something that you actually absolutely hate? And think it's the most ugliest thing? Why would I want to accept that, but I knew because of my psychology studies, that acceptance of anything is a really positive route to actually take. And what happens to people who stammer thought, we're supposed to magically sprinkle dust on us one day, just accept it. How does that happen? This radical acceptance? How does that happen? How do we come to terms with this? How do we live with this? How do we live with the buildup of tension not only emotionally and psychologically, but in our bodies as well. And I just felt like it was maybe important to begin the conversations now. It's hugely humble what I'm doing it's tiny, tiny, tiny, but even if it leaves somebody questioning flow states and what flow states are and how they interact, or possibly can interact with discharge and tension, and or transient, meaning just really small moments of free of that angst for some people, then I think it's a really positive thing to start to look at. Now when I say enjoyable activities, because that's what flows part of flow status. Again, I mean, really deeply as real sense of enjoyment, a real sense of being at one how everything's right. Now, when we think about young people, God, I'm jumping into things here. When we think about young people, how important it is to just enjoy yourself. What would it be like if young people enjoyed their speech like that beautiful children's book, eyes? Talk, I speak like a river. It's so beautiful. What if we could I don't know how to get there. But I think it's worth trying to find some things that kids enjoy themselves in the activities not necessarily enjoying their speech necessarily, although that would be great. But to really immerse themselves in enjoyable things and activities that they feel a sense of scale. And so it's the study I've been doing is what's called qualitative Study, which means that I've had interviews with people. And again, I'm not seeking any I don't want to sound like I'm an expert, because I'm not. But I've interviewed four people now, which is tiny. But all four people have spoken about anxiety. I've spoken about stress. They've all had physical activities that they that they do. And one participant who actually was a dancer, spoke about the connection with some kinds of divine side that the divine, which I thought was so beautiful. Now, within flow states, it's been highly researched. And it's been taken into kind of corporate environments, gaming environments, buying purchases on the web. And it was me Hiles chick sent me Haley, who, in the early 90s, was studying creatives and artists and athletes. Oh, yeah, flow state is highly popular within sport as well. But what sometimes not looked at as closely is that Mihail spoke about flourishing as an individual as a human being, and what what life constitutes what things in life could lead to a flourishing, a wholeness, and that one, a sense of everything being right, which I've said a few times now. And you did actually speak about the connection with kind of psychic now he didn't mean hearing voices. And that terms, what he meant was something higher than ourselves kind of that once again, kind of really spiritual hair. But something that's demonstrates a kind of intelligence that's beyond those may be and I thought it was really interesting that one of the participants spoke of the Divine. And I just wondered about that divine, I wondered about that place of auto acceptance of ourselves. So that's where I'm at at the moment. And I think it's interesting, the common threads that have come up in the interviews. And I'm not using flow state measures. So at the moment, they're just a mess of activities that I think appear to resemble flow state. So we're at the very, very, very, very beginning of of it all, really. And each participant has spoken about within their flow state activity.

A change in time. So feeling by the time, a lot of time, either it goes quickly or go slowly. They've also spoken about a sense of skill within the activity that they've gotten the intrinsic rewards from having a sense of skill, and being utterly enjoyable. And several of the participants have actually mentioned that without the activity that they do, they don't know where they would be without the activity, which I thought was fascinating. Yeah. So that's where I'm at at the moment with the studies into flow states.

Maya:

Yeah, it reminds me because I'm, I'm working on another project around stuttering where I'm trying to access archives and seeing what documentaries have mentioned, stuttering and where stories show up and just like, like, in like news stories, and just to try and to go back as far as as far as possible. It's quite challenging to locate these archives. But what I have found is, there's this one documentary I was watching about a football player, I think his last name or first name was Herschel. And he was he was, he was telling a story about how as a child, he would get picked on a lot for his his stutter. And he would refuse to go outside for recess, because he didn't want to face the other kids. And then so he would be by himself a lot. And he would go down by the train tracks near his house and just sit there. And then like, there was one day where he was like, You know what I am like, I am sick of just sitting here and not putting myself out there. I'm going to start running and so he would run and try to catch up with the trains as they went when by and started training and he found himself really loving football and how that just that commitment to the sport really helped him With his stutter mentally and so I just think there's so much there. And there's so many stories, I think out there that really point to how activities like this can have a positive impact on stuttering. And I'm just, I'm so excited to see what you find out. I think there's so much potential in this area of research for so many things. And I know I can speak for myself, like volleyball, having volleyball every every week. It's always such a grounding experience for me, and I feel exactly like, time speeds up when I'm playing volleyball, like one second, it's 7pm. The next minute, it's 10pm. And I it's like that every time. So,

yeah, I'd like to kind of I suppose just clarify. I'm not suggesting and not that you've said it is suggesting that flow states is in any way going to ameliorate their stammer at all or to mitigate it. Where I think where I hope it could be more knowledge gained. And where it could be useful is on the journey of self acceptance on the journey of that identity, self identity on that journey of being in a place where I think that I am now at 54. So it's been a long, long time. Because not everybody is fortunate enough to feel comfortable about their stammer, although people are but not everybody is and for the people that aren't and they're on a journey. How do we cope on that journey? How do we cope on those days when it's really bad? And some that really heartbreaking happens? How do we cope with that, because it's not like our stomach goes away, and it's going to be cure, or there's going to be some days are going to be much harder than others. And that's what I feel about it's on at why that kind of talk about transient moments, moments that common commonly go moments that prepare us for the following day to go out and live again, because unless we're going to stay in the house, we've got to keep going out every day. And it's utterly a strain sometimes not for everybody, I appreciate that. But there is a strain for some. And whilst people come to a more comfortable place when they're older, perhaps because it takes so so long, then the importance of finding an activity that makes us feel really joined up and just feel great. Just feel like they are powerful, powerful people, individuals, and calm and quiet at the same time. And that was people were to observe us in our activity. But they get a sense of wholeness, just those small times of wholeness. That's where I think maybe the benefit could actually be and the, the people I've spoken to, like I said, I've talked about when they've reflected in the interview, they've talked about the skill level, they've talked about being so I really want to stress, it's not about being the best or being good. It's about a sense inside of having a certain degree of control over those skills, and being successful in that kind of moment. That's where think the application may be perhaps, and if we if we research a specific group, because I've got insight into it, and it has led me to this place, of course. But for everybody who has intrinsic difficulties, the importance of activities, perhaps there's lots of things, there's mindfulness, there's the act, isn't it acceptance and compassion therapy and maybe

flow states could contribute to to that, but I just want to add that in me Hi, Chick sent me highly. I think he died last year. And in the last couple of years, he has actually he did write this beautiful article about societies and communities and cultures. And within that, he did speak about three necessities he feels for people to have the optimum kind of life and to express themselves fully. And one of them is hope, second is freedom and third is flow. So it is part of kind of a triad really And then I won't, I wouldn't even dream of trying to express what he said. But it's worth looking up thoroughly about his writings about societies and communities because we live in societies. And perhaps that's why within societies of people where I've personally now linked up through yourself and through stammer, the British stammering society, I think Association in England, and the work that they are doing is just incredible, engaging, funny, current, you know, to contemporary, forward looking, it's inclusive, it's encouraging. It's supportive, it's connecting, but really modern, there's a real modernists about them. So the fact that they've helped me access participants for the study I'm really grateful of, and of course, my you are actually on their international, which is where, you know, you've, you've contributed with your proud stutter and sharing your stories. I'm proud stutter. And I know I'm not the only person who feels like this, the voice that you've given us and the sensitive issues you've brought up, and the sensitive issues we could speak about when you were speaking about work, and you were speaking about dating. There's some real sensitive issues that we could bring up. And maybe it would be great to talk about kind of women's issues or relationships, at connection with our bodies. You know, these are, these are conversations that I don't think I've been had yet, and I think it would be really useful to have them.

Maya:

Yeah. Well, thank you. And we will definitely have those writings in our show notes. And so definitely look there to explore these this topic more. Well, Jane, thank you so much for this conversation. And this is just touching the surface on so many issues that I hope to cover in the future. Thank you so much for sharing your research and about your experiences. I just feel so honored to be connected with you. And yeah,

Thank you, Maya and everything that you're doing, and all the interesting people that you're having on so thank you. Thank you all those people for sharing all their stories, too.

Maya:

And that's it for this episode of proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by a gusto, Denise, and our artwork by Mara zekiel and Noah Chupkov. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at www dot proud stutter.com. And if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you're listening to this podcast. Want to leave us a voicemail? Check out our show notes for that the number to call in more importantly, tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you