Exploring Stuttering and Intersectional Identities (Live Interview!)

Transcript

Eugene Johnson:

What it was about me that made me connect with them whether the fact that we're from the hood, Native American, whatever it was, I was able to connect with them in a way that other therapists couldn't. And the last session I had with them with one of the last sessions, they said, Doc, if you had not spent the time with me today tonight, I was gonna kill myself. So if I ever wonder if I'm in the right place at the right time for them to tell me if it wasn't for my connection that night. They were gonna kill themselves. So I think I'm in the right place at the right time, and I can say the word intersectionality.

Maya Chupkov:

I'm Maya Chupkov. And I'm a woman who stutters Welcome to proud stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it. one conversation at a time Welcome to proud stutter. I'm your host, Maya Chupkov, a proud woman who stutters thank you for joining us for our first ever live interview from Newport Beach, California. At the annual National Stuttering Association Conference. Of course, you can follow the show on Twitter @proudstutter and Instagram @ proudstutter and become a supporter of the show through ko-fi.com/proudstutter it's the equivalent of Patreon but it just takes less of a percentage which is why I chose it instead of Patreon all your help on Ko-Fi is incredibly appreciated. As we are 100% listener funded. Supporters of proud stutter on Ko-Fi get proud stutter merch, a featured interview in our newsletter and much more. Thank you to our proud stutter supporters Ingo Helbig, Guido Sanchez and Martha Horrocks and all the other ones I mentioned in previous episodes. If you want to hear your name on the pod, all you have to do is sign up to become a co fi supporter. 

Today we are speaking live with film and TV producer Christian Ting a person who stutters accompanied by special guests, Alicia, Sam and Eugene. They were attendees who were in the room and also shared their stories on the mic. The theme of this episode is intersectionality. We talk about how our identities intersect with being a person who stutters. We talk about examples of stuttering, representation and TV and film ableism and healthcare and much more feeling the energy in the room in Newport Beach was truly special. And I hope you enjoy this live recording of proud stutter. Welcome, everyone to proud stutter, I am so excited to have my first ever live audience. And we're doing something a little different with this episode. We're gonna have a chance at the end of this interview, to invite one or two people to also join me and be interviewed and be part of proud of starters. 

So without further ado, let's get started. Christian. So our theme for this episode is intersectionality. What does intersectionality mean to you? And how do you? How does it show up in your life.

Christian Ting:

Intersectionality means opening yourself up to all the multitudes that comprise who you are in the lens of my own life, it's being Asian American, it's also being a second generation Chinese person. It also means being a person who stutters. It also means being someone who is covert and has to deal with the stigma that comes around that. It also means being someone who is faced with marginalization that are out of my control, especially in an industry like entertainment. It represents a passion and an unyielding sense of duty when it comes to doing things from an authentic POV.

Maya:

So I am very curious about, were you always so open about your stutter and your different identities as as a child.

Christian:

It sounds almost like filmic. But I remember when I first found out my stutter. I was literally five years old and kindergarten in the playground and I was like sliding down the slide and the monkey bars. And I was trying to talk to my friend Charlie at the time and I just experienced my first block, it just came out like a lightning bolt from Thor, it just hit me. And at that time at my kindergarten, I knew of another student who had a severe stutter. And I was always curious about like, what was happening there, whether it be mechanistically, or in his own personal life, and to be able to have like a mirror to my experience. I grew up with a truly severe stutter something that was disability rating that required me to really look internally as to like, was something that was my fault. Was it because I was a second born Was it because of the water in the East Bay, I wasn't exactly sure where the the source of this experience was growing up. I don't regret that experience whatsoever. I thought that it was incredibly layered. And it represented to me, one of many obstacles I would face on my journey. And I think the idea of intersectionality became very apparent to me growing up in Danville, California, it's a primarily deeply conservative highly white town infamously said no to Prop 8 and 2008, the kind of place where individual like myself, was made to feel other. But it only came to a head as I got an older because when I went to UC Berkeley, in 2009, it was my first time that I actually got to experience like the fullness of a community, in this case, Asian American people. And I remember taking a class that was like my fateful class, like the inciting incident on the scripts of called Asian Americans in film and video, which basically introduced me to like the sheer racism that is present in the industry, whether it be like long Duk, Dong from 16, candles to Lesley Chow from the hangover to white people playing Asian people and winning Oscars like that, then that's in 27. So that opened my eyes to like, that seems to be a issue that was very pressing. And there wasn't a lot of traction around how do we actually mobilize around dealing with this and addressing this, and there are social horrors that exists like to this day, but like that moment, put me on a course that took me through wsf, working in tech at Facebook and Twitter and arriving at a point in being in LA now where I feel like I'm in charge, I'm responsible for my destiny, I'm responsible for being in a position where I can be active in my own agency. And I think that's something that a lot of people do Chase. And I feel deeply fortunate to be able to be in a position, not only at the NSA, but as an independent producer, where if you want something to get made, if you want something to be seen, you have the authority to stand up and advocate for that from a genuine place. And that's where I decided to like, make my mark, and it's how I want to live my life.

Maya:

Talking about your experience in the entertainment industry. How do you see the entertainment industry? 

Christian:

So TV, film, even different mediums, right, like documentaries, like all of these different artistic ways we express ourselves like how do you see the entertainment industry playing a role in shifting the narratives that are harmful, right, something that is truly representative. And, of course, I'm interested in how you think, to shift the stuttering narrative, but also any other narratives that we see in our society, in this room? How many of us are familiar with some depiction, however subtle of a person or an entity that stutters in the media, like, raise your hand? We'll call it some examples that that you've seen, like, it could be anything but

Steven:

The one that I liked recently was in the new it series, they will one of the main characters is a person who stutters and the plot of the movie, I won't spoil it, but they have to overcome their fears and stuff at school. He's I think he's a representative Well, are we are we are represented well.

Maya:

And I have one as well. So I actually recently interviewed a young woman for season two, she just got casted in an animated TV series. And the main character is a woman who stutters she is a rising actress like she is going to be such a great voice for us in the entertainment world. So do you have an example you want to share?

Christian:

Porky Pig although and the the jury's still out on if he represents a positive or negative portrayal and let me qualify this this position on it. The voice actor who does Porky Pig broke down recently, the formula behind his speech pattern it's actually like a formula of like a mean, like a nun seeing the fourth vowel every other sentence you like. It's like that level like mathematics involved is way beyond any type of speech condition. Then it's like his whole bit was that and that's why I have job security because I'm the only person who can do that. So I'm it's like, it is some you could call it an appropriation of our community I bet like obviously we've seen on that realm but also things like Colin Firth in the King's speech with won the Academy Award in 2010, Leonardo DiCaprio in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, which is done with a level of subtlety and compassion that I think is like, serviceable, um, a brief story from my own experience. And this is something that one of my dear friends put me on to a producer at a studio, who is basically soliciting young men who have stutters to be optioned for a new dating show being developed by a studio is definitely not Fox. But basically, the idea behind this casting was men who were down and out and had suffered or had been at the whims of a condition about their control had the opportunity to find love. And I had so many red flags. Because on what I can see people smiling, it's just like, why and, and more and more seriously, like this could be an opportunity to, like truly humiliate someone, no, to be on camera to be subjected to anything about reality TV show, it's not really reality, it's heavily scripted. And that when that verbal what was best for me, I was never the same. But when it comes to a community that I'm rather sensitive, which is this stuttering community, I think that it's like really important to like, do it with empathy, and not for what is like a nice logline or to service some reality TV demographic. So I respectfully said, Hell, no, I'm not doing this. But also, you can hire me as a consulting producer to make sure that if this does happen, pay me but also, can we ensure that there is some fidelity and some honor to this process? Since that was a few years ago, so I've never gotten made, thankfully.

Maya:

So I'm gonna go a little off script here. But John Gomez sorry, John, to put you on the spot. But John Gomez recently consulted on a show on Netflix.

John Gomez:

Yeah, so my mp3 was made by Netflix. And he had a character in there called Rico. And Rico is not only Latino, but Afro Latino. So that's really great. intersectionality. And I already kind of loved the concept of it. But he also was a person who stutters. And Netflix has a portion to certain amount of money to making sure that they're getting the story, right. With people who have all forms of differences. I like to call them differences, they call them disabilities. And they called me up one day, and they said, Do you think you might be able to help? Do you think you might be able to offer us some consultation so that we put something out that is, you know, sensitive, something that honors people who stutter. And yeah, I was lucky enough to get that call. And they hired me. And the process was really fantastic. I just want to throw in a quick story. The gentleman the producer, Jorge Gutierrez said that he dealt with autism, and that he felt like it never really got a spotlight. And that he wanted to spotlight another difference among humanity that never really really got its chance. And that was stuttering. Because he said, it's important for people to see themselves reflected back in the stories that we tell the entire show was done with a whole lot of compassion and a whole lot of love, quite frankly. And you could just see it in the writers room and with the producer, so I was lucky enough to be able to do that.

Maya:

Let's talk about covert stuttering, because we both have covert stutter stutters can you? Christian talk about how coverts stuttering introduce that sex with your other identities.

Christian:

I see it in the similar way that I see code switching, you know, and I think it's something that any person who inhabits some margin and some multitude that has been an othering process, it knows this experience quite well of being able to either conceal or disintegrate something for the sake of survival or just fitting in. And for me, like, covered stuttering represents a very complex positioning. Because it all always opens up opportunities for a lot of pain, with respect to your experience being minimized, but also anxiety around not wanting to invalidate the experiences of others who, by by fat or by implicitness don't have as much of a struggle as you.

Maya:

So I want to shift gears a little bit. Can you talk about the current projects you're working on?

Christian:

I just want to say that I've never felt more like myself that I have today. Being able to be in a position to uplift people who don't get a shot. Because if we're kind of going back to this idea of like intersectional identity when it comes to stutters, we have to also recognize that there is a tendency within entertainment to use anyone who is differently abled. Anyone who's neurodivergent as a trope that I want to really reduce is how like Hollywood and the powers that be always choosing like a character who is on the spectrum and as autistic as having some type of secret power or knows where the ghosts are like that type of like stereotype has to stop, because like, where does it come from? It comes from ignorance. It comes from a lack of knowing people in these communities in these identities, and doing this way, for a while for people who stutters like in the most negative pejorative way, when we were depicted, it was seen as humiliating as the above the joke as truly dehumanizing. And when you layer that depiction, with an intersectional lens, it's just like, how often do you see people of color who also stutter who are not seeing in a negative light, like advancing the positivity of these big balanced portrayals is essential to kind of connecting people who are built out of ignorance, like, we have the benefit in this conference in these safe walls to be able to create intentional spaces to have these like honest conversations. But a lot of times outside of here, those don't exist. And especially for people who are making decisions when it comes to like representation. They don't know they don't have a family member or a spouse, or a grandpa who has these type of experiences. So for me and my life, like having a podcast highlighting, like up and coming Asian Americans and people of color, and people who just deserve to have a shot because of systems that are beyond our control, the vibrancy of our community, it all comes back to one thing I would offered anyone who's in this position of like, I feel passionate about something, but how do I activate it around, it's like, we have a chance now to like be at liberty to do what you truly want to do. And I truly wanted to be here today actually want to talk to Maya. And I just feel like, as much as there's been negativity and discontent and a lot of just like noise on the internet, how important is it to have this type of space to just have these real conversations? So like, you should really be thanking yourself for taking the time to come out here and have this experience with us.

Maya:

How what can we do as a stuttering community, to make the world a safer space for all of us to be freely ourselves?

Christian:

For me, it's, it's about personal and social accountability. But I think part of the journey is the social element, it is getting beyond the bubble or the insularity of being at home or being in the position when you lack that community to have like a genuine response. And for me, it's like, obviously, we're in a warm room right now we're in with people who stutter allies loved ones SLPs, like the Avengers have this type of, of condition and space. And it's a really beautiful thing. This is one of the most present parts for a lot of our identities, if you think about communication is like communication is community, right? If we're unable to articulate ourselves, or be able to present ourselves in a certain way, then we can't, we can't afford to let other people do it for us. And that's exactly what media does. Sometimes it's like, okay, because there haven't been notable people who stutter in positions of power or positions of selection to govern how we're depicted. It's no surprise why the depiction historically has not been that positive. But as John Gomez had mentioned, there are strides being taken to not only be intersectional, with a capital AI, but to be like compassionate. And that kind of in a nutshell is what places that are sacred like this do. Now, we've used the word a lot, but I think beyond just intersectionality, I think the one thing that I think is so important, is to recognize that the things that we feel may suppress us or marginalize, and just minimizing those general they're actually a product of our liberation to care about the stuttering community, the neuro divergent community, communities of color, the LGBTQ plus community, it's all deeply intertwined, because it's all at its root derived from enhancing your compassion, compassion from people who may not share your skin color, your origin, your religion, your speech experience, the more badges that we attach to ourselves that are grafted from experience and some are just innate, it leads to a more compassionate world. I truly believe that like with all of my being, I think we live in a very like thoughtless time right now. I think it's refreshing to have the ability to just like, ferment and be very thorough with like your thoughtfulness and coming from a sincere place. And so, I think, even though it's not very serious, it comes from a very softness in me, you know, I'm a cancer moon. I think that's something that I truly care about, and I think it's important to amplify those feelings.

Maya:

So I am going to invite whoever feels called to come up here and talk about inner sexuality and how it shows up in your life.

Alicia Vasquez:

Hi, my name is Alicia Vasquez. I am from Maryland came a long way. I am a a bilingual or first generation Latin woman, I also work in healthcare. And I am a person who stutters. So in a lot of that is a lot of points that meet together and some that don't clash necessarily to some that clash, they don't mesh together very well. And in my culture as well in the Latin community, very much of it is, don't ask, don't tell. And if you can't speak right, then don't speak at all. So learning to kind of navigate those waters on your own without any help, or guidance was very difficult growing up, as well as Now I mentioned I work in healthcare. I'm a behavioral technician I work with I do I do ABA therapy. And even in a place such as health care, having to navigate those waters, and to hey, I can do this. And I can do that and being kind of coated with that saw that would that false sense of comfort, and you kind of think to yourself, Okay, this is health care, you have people who you feel like might be more compassionate, because they're in this field, and you think they might be understanding and then coming to that harsh reality of okay, movie, this is not that having coded yourself in a false reality having to navigate around that.

Maya:

Yeah, we got another one. Come on up.

Sam:

Hi, my name is Sam. First off, I do want to say I do listen to your podcasts. And I love it. So it's very cool being here. Yes, all of my intersexual intersectionalities. I'm a person who studies I'm a woman I'm by racial, I'm Salvadorian. I'm queer. I feel like one of the biggest ones, for me that relates to my stutter, is being a woman, because for me, my stuttering can look like I'm hesitating, or I'm unsure, or I'm not confident in what I'm saying. And I feel like as a woman, and certain spaces and rooms, you have to be very confident. And there's not a lot of room for any sort of like mistakes. And if you start to like slip up on your words or be hesitant, people automatically assume she doesn't know what she's talking about. Or she's nervous. I also related to what you were saying, in the Latin community, which is like, Don't Ask, Don't Tell. And especially like, if you can't speak right then don't speak at all. And I feel like that's been a part of my life. And I actually to this day, like not everyone in my family knows that I have a stutter. Because I am covert in most situations. And I just know that like, some of my family members won't understand that. I also relate it to what you said, I work in mental health right now as a support staff. And like I was just saying about being like a woman I have to be like very confident and same with working in mental health. And I'm so young to so I have to show up like extra confident. And my stutter definitely makes that challenging. But I have found that in those spaces, I, I have more opportunity to be more accepted by people. I think a lot of people who work in healthcare and mental health do have more empathy and more compassion. So there's pros and cons to it, because I can look like not super confident and not like resourceful enough. But on the other hand, I do have spaces today where I can be completely open, and I can disclose my stutter and be accepted for it. So yeah.

Maya:

Wow, that was thank you so much for sharing. Oh, my gosh.

Eugene Johnson:

My name is Eugene Johnson. I always start off by saying my name Eugene Johnson. Because when I grew up, I could not say my name. And I used to not like my name because I couldn't say it. And I've had several careers and I guess the intersectionality part of what I just said that word, right. intersectionality. Part of it is I've traversed several careers in different areas of the country. I am from Baltimore, Maryland. I grew up in the hood. If any of y'all have seen the series, the wire that's my upbringing, and I survived. So I guess I could have several internets. intersectionality. Being African American Irish, Native American, which is, which is Cherokee Indian, and I'm proud of all of that. I'm also part of the medical profession as the non practicing physician that did that when I was an officer, medical officer in the Air Force at Andrews Air Force Base. And I'm a medical researcher, and drug and alcohol rehab specialist, but I'm most proud of being a Lyft driver, believe it or not, all the other stuff looks good on paper. It's good on a resume. But I think I reached more people by being a Lyft driver. Because with every passenger, not only do I get a chance to practice my speech therapy techniques, but with all of the careers that I've had, I've had a chance to reach people at different levels, those who think this mock those who are smart, and I've been there, I used to, I used to be arrogant, because of my different levels of professionalism until my friends brought me down, down to level. And as a Lyft. Driver. When people get in the car, they have no idea that I've gotten all this education, which doesn't matter at the time, what up what I liked the most is being able to being able to communicate with people. And what I find interesting is that when I stopped a conversation, I'll say, where are you from? Originally, I couldn't say that word at one time. But being a Lyft driver, it gives me exposure with every passenger to have a conversation. So not only am I getting therapy, therapy for myself, because I got a chance to practice with all of the careers that I've had. And I believe this. I think God puts people in my car for reason at different times. Two of the most interesting passengers was one guy that was choking on a piece of candy and I had just been recertified and CPR and basic life support. Two weeks prior in my car, I asked him, Were you okay? He couldn't speak. So I knew what the sign was. I pulled out one interstate, turn to my blinkers. Asked him again. Where are you? Okay, I leaned forward and gave my modified Hamlet 15 pounds and in the back in the candy flew out. And I'm thinking, what if somebody else was in the car who didn't know what to do? And it's one thing to know what to do, and be able to do it at that time. As a Lyft driver. I have intersected with people of various socio economic levels, people who thought they knew a lot, and I bring them down to a level, different religion. And I just love being a Lyft driver because I get a chance to meet the average person while I'm working on my therapy at the same time. Another person got in my car. This was right at the peak of the pandemic. And this is where my medical professional came in as a therapist. He was he was suicidal at the time. A lot of people have bad days and they talk about suicide. This guy had a plan. He was ready to carry it out. Why was in my car. I'm part of the grief ministry at my church. And I'm an I'm a physician, and I'm I do mental health was in my car for reason. wasn't an accident. I turned off the app. And I said, Okay, God. So I said things. It didn't come from me. You came from some high power. But I spent about an hour with him. Talk. Okay, wait a minute. This is my allergies kicking in Okay.

Talk talked him into continuing his appointment with this with his psychiatrists. I had a therapy session with him. I asked him about asking why was he going to kill himself and he had lost his job, lost his house house, his wife was leaving with the kids. He had he said he had no reason to live. I said, Well, can you call your daughter? She's he said he she's in Miami. I said, Can you call her? He said no, because her husband just committed suicide. So I'm saying, God, are you planning? Are you playing with me? So I said, Okay, well, you can't call him. I mean her. So I said, Let's just just talk. And so we made I made a verbal contract with him. I said, if you get to the point where you can't make it through today, I need you to tell me two people that you're going to call and he mentioned a friend of his and his therapist, and I made him sad. A if I can't make it, I will call so and so and so. And I made him say it three times. Then I shook his hand, and I took him to his appointment. I didn't know what else to do. But I know I wanted to go inside the appointment with him. But I know I couldn't violate his privacy. But I did. All I could do. But I'm saying all that to say that me being a Lyft driver allows me to traverse different levels of intersectionality different people. And I don't know who never know who gets in my car. But believe it or not, androids been lift travel more than everything else I've done and I've done research for NASA. In our H, Mhairi, Vanderbilt, you name it, but I think I'm saving I'm I'm touching more people at the basic level by being a Lyft driver. Every day when I get in the car, I see God Okay, who are you going to put in my car that's gonna make my day. That's gonna give me a reason. Last thing I want to say, and okay, if I get emotional, it's my allergies. Okay? If I ever doubt, if I'm in the right place at the right time as being a Lyft driver, with all the things I've done. And being a drug and alcohol rehab specialist, I do that part time. And I'm on call for that. And folks say, well, with all the stuff I've done previously, why would I want to lower myself down to drug and alcohol? And I say, Well, I'm from the hood, military, medical, everybody has issues. So whenever I think I'm in the wrong place, I think of two incidences a black man and a white man in between 40 and 40, and 50. And I was able to connect with them. At two of the rehab facilities that I am on call for what it was about me that made me connect with them, whether the fact that we're from the hood, Native American, whatever it was, I was able to connect with them in a way that other therapists couldn't. And the last session I had with them with one of the last sessions, they said, Doc, if you had not spent the time with me today tonight that was gonna kill myself. So if I ever wonder if I'm in the right place at the right time for them to tell me if it wasn't for my connection that night. They were gonna kill themselves. So I think I'm in the right place at the right time. And I can say the word intersectionality.

Maya:

Wow. And I just met you this morning at the water fountain. And it was very I felt that we were meant to have that conversation. So thank you for for that. 

And that's it for this episode of proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by a gusto, Denise and our artwork by Mara zekiel and Noah to calm. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at www dot proud stutter.com And if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you're listening to this podcast. Want to leave us a voicemail. Check out our show notes for that the number to call in more importantly, tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you.