Interview with Author John Hendrickson

Transcript

Maya Chupkov:

You may have read the extremely popular Atlantic feature what Joe Biden can't bring himself to say or that the New York Times film by James Robinson. I stutter this is what you are not hearing Our Guest John Hendrickson is the author of the Atlantic story and the central character in The New York Times film. In a new book, he writes candidly about bullying substance abuse depression isolation and other issues stutters face on a daily basis. John Hendrickson is a senior editor at the Atlantic the title of his upcoming book is life on a delay making peace with a stutter coming January 2023. Life On Delay is a memoir that's grew out of his Atlantic feature, which was read by more than two million people and named one of the best stories of 2019 by long form.

John has spoken about stuttering politics and a journalism on several news outlets including CNN MSNBC. He lives in New York City with his wife John. Welcome to Proud stutter and congratulations on your book.

John Hendrickson:

Thank you so much Maya, really appreciate you having me on.

Maya:

So wonderful to have you drawn on proud stutter. My first question is have you always wanted to write a memoir? I don't know if I always wanted to write a memoir in particular.

John:

I think is a kid. I always wanted to where to book. What I was older most of the books. I read even in you know Elementary School and Middle School were nonfiction and if they were fiction, I was always attracted to realistic fiction is never attracted to Fantasy sci-fi.

And then as I got older through high school college after college, I definitely gravitated more toward memoir.

Mary Carr Davis’ memoir was a major influence on me in this project and I really like the sort of investing native aspects of it because you're digging back into parts of your life that

You you may have forgotten about or blacked out or not given enough.

Because the situation too and it's just really cool exercise to put yourself back in this headspace of different different ages. That's super interesting and

I just want to say before we get any further how much I enjoyed and loved your book John. So let's get into parts of the book. So the first

part of the book and one that really stuck out to me is the one where you talk about your kindergarten a teacher and calling her up after all of these years. Can you talk about that chapter? And also just the process of going back in time and

for me and reforming

these relationships

that was one of my favorite interviews. I did for the book. I did about 100 interviews a combination of people from my past like kindergarten teacher my sixth grade girlfriend my old therapist and you know different parts of my life people who were really important to me and yet we had never talked about my stutter it always been elephant in the room.

And that one like kindergarten teacher came about through a LinkedIn message from a total total stranger. Who's who said they were just on vacation in Maine and they happened to it was a woman and she happened to meet up with

her son's kindergarten teacher.

Who in the course of their conversation began talking about this article? She read about Joe Biden and realized it had been written.

By an old by a kid who was in here in class. And so this kind woman just shared this nice cool story with me.

And I asked do you have missed pickford's contact info? I'd love to get in touch with them. You know, I haven't talked to her in decades and it took some back and forth took a little bit of digging.

And that I reached out to her and then we made time to talk and we had this incredible conversation and I'm 34. So it was literally.

30 years ago. I was in her class and I did not have any memory. I did not have any idea if she would remember me or have anything this say about what I was like in class anything, you know, you never know, but her Recollections were just incredible and and it it was one of my favorite conversations and it was her my kindergarten teacher.

to have really first notice that

something was wrong with me and in

A parent-teacher conference or something of that nature this bigford told my mom. You should have him evaluated something's wrong. And so that whole many Saga is an early part of the book and kind of it gets me going on this journey to talk with her people and to just finally have these conversations that I never had.

And it's a weird exercise, you know in some cases you're reaching out to people who

You've absolutely lost in touch with and you're saying hey, is it cool if we talk about this problem I have but this were just mind-blowing conversations and and they've led to really powerful.

to reconnective relationships and I have kept in touch with these people ever since I interviewed them and it's it was like a perfect excuse just

Make some long lost connections plus I think it brought us closer because it finally gave us a chance to sort of talk about this elephant in the room.

Maya:

So many of the

passages in your memoir

put language to things that I never really put language to so that was extremely enjoyable and I am going to read a quote from another chapter in your book.

Hmm. There's a voice in my head who reads this sentence and a much different voice who reads it out loud. I'm wondering is is this why you were so attracted to writing?

John:

Absolutely.

writing

was

really the venue where I could Glimpse Clarity and control.

And feel like I was my truest self and it was always an escape for me from an early age. English is always my favorite subject.

It's it's it's always mental often to me.

reading

Reading out loud is actively very hard for me. But I know there are people who stutter who don't mind reading out loud because they can really control their breath and air flow and they can find that Rhythm and it can it can be pretty smooth, but for me.

You even if I'm totally alone in a room and I were to read out loud from my own book, I would stutter.

and

That's hard. You know, that's sort of the the biggest wake-up call that.

this is not

a not an intermittent issue. This is like truly woven into your DNA that even with no one else around you stutter and it's it's up to

us to

make peace with that to accept that and to get to a place where it's okay.

while I was writing

this book

my goal was to

write roughly the Thousand Words a day.

Monday through Friday within a window of about 9:00 am is six pm.

and every night

Six o'clock my wife would come in and just being the amazing person. She is would

Read that days text out loud to me and I would.

lay on it lay down and close my eyes and listen to it and

figure out what was wrong with it, you know say well that sentence needs to be tighter. That's three souls should be too syllables. We need to cut that adjective. We need to get tighter tighter tighter.

and doing that was really fun exercise because

it's it's that it's symbiotic relationship between

the voicing your head that you read but then obviously the outlaw Voice or another person's.

about voice and the interplay of all those

And the way that they can connect or just connect it was just really cool.

Maya:

Wow that

That is such an amazing way to write a book. I feel like that's probably.

The most unique way ever and I love it because as someone who stutters that totally makes sense to me and and how you write about you and your wife's relationship in the book is so sweet. One of the things you really kind of you have a lot of stories around is your your dating life and

Um, a lot of listeners are proud stutter, that's probably the most common topic. They asked me to talk about on the show and we did have one episode.

And it was mostly about me talking about all my embarrassing dating moments. Um, but I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about

your dating experience and if you have any advice for anyone out there who stutters that might be struggling with with dating right now.

John:

If I could go back and change anything about my time growing up in my dating life through adolescence College in 20s.

It would be disclosing my stutter more actively with more intentionality.

I never really introduced myself as a person who stutters until

a few years ago

And it was obvious, you know, I'm notably just fluent.

But I could just never bring myself to do that. And it was just not the thing. I was putting forward and it was like I was walking around with the world's worst kept secret.

and then for whatever reason

I met my now wife on a very first day.

I opened up about

being a person who stutters within the first 15 minutes of conversation.

And I was met with radical acceptance and just total neutrality and understanding.

And part of that is because my wife Liz has a different neurological disorder and just kind of immediately understood a lot of the layers of this whole thing.

But another part of it was just because Jesus good person and I think as we all get older you move through 20s and into your 30s.

People are more accepting and people have met.

Met individuals from all walks of life with all the different disabilities all different backgrounds and everyone's bringing something different the table.

And we just get more mature. We just get more comfort and skin and I and so I look back and I just wish that like as a

teenager or even in college. I wish I could have just done that more in the first conversation.

Maya:

I think disclosing early like for me as well really helped in my relationship my dating life throughout my grade school years was like non-existent. So

but that's for another episode. So you mentioned your writing.

Process and how your wife helped you by reading out loud? What you would written part of writing a book is going on book tour, which probably involves a lot of public speaking and maybe reading doing readings as well. And so I'm wondering like, how are you approaching this book tour? Because you're still early in it. How you prepare for?

those

public moments I guess

John:

it's

hard because talking takes a lot out of me like even doing this interview when it's over.

I'll be very exhausted and certain parts of my neck.

Throat Mouse certain parts. They're just like this muscles will hurt.

um

but it's such a privilege and an honor just to be invited to

talk anywhere on any platform the podcast or at a bookstore anywhere.

So I don't have any room to complain about anything. I can't make any excuses and I can't.

I can't let these opportunities pass by.

My book tour kicks off on the pub day. I'll be in New York, and I'm going to DC Boston Philadelphia Austin, Texas, Denver, Colorado, Los Angeles and then a bunch of

colleges and other things like that, but in this it is I mentioned

all those are at bookstores and all those are going to be

me in conversation with another author

and

I'm curious about you Maya but

I feel more comfortable.

In conversation than I do reading prepared.

prepared address or reading a chapter out of the book but the improvisational nature of just talking with someone I feel minimally comfortable with

Um, but not entirely comfortable with and the you know, I'm much more looking forward to just meeting other people who stutter before and after those events and having you know conversations in the hallway and inscribing books and just being able to talk to people that way.

Than I am.

talking into a microphone in a bookstore, but

it's

it's a great unique Challenge and it's it's such an honor to just go anywhere and I feel like

the more that

the people who stutter are talking into microphones the better

Maya:

I agree and I think there's gonna be a lot of Tears shed.

At your events because like I can probably guarantee that there's probably going to be at least.

One person who stutters at each event that this is their first like stuttering.

Event, you know what I mean?

so I think yeah, so I'm just so excited for you and all the people you're gonna meet along the way that just seems like such a gift the other like cool part of that is

We as people who stutter are so used to being the only person in the room. Who stutters.

and so it's possibly create an environment in which

yes, there's one person in the room who stutters but there are people in the audience who may like get up and ask a question and when they do so they may stutter and all of the non-studders in the room.

Then have an opportunity to listen to all different types of stuttering, you know, not just one.

Just creating the dynamic environment like that is really what I'm most excited about.

Maya:

Yeah, that's gonna be incredible. We recently had an event in San Francisco at the booksmiths, which is an independent bookstore in the hate.

One of the the panelists with was Nina G and she talked a little bit about her book. But what was so amazing about that experience was

there were a mix of people who studied and people who didn't and also that there was like one person who showed up that that was the first time that he's ever been around other people who stutter the fact that you're

Creating these spaces for people to show up is just incredible. So

let's go to another chapter of your book the one about Jerome Ellis who I deeply admire. Can you talk about your friendship with Jerome and a little bit about that chapter?

John:

Jerome I we're just texting yesterday as a matter of fact

I like a lot of people first encountered him through his This American Life episode. She's oh one of the best pieces of radio I've ever heard and I believe that segment want to Peabody Award.

It's and if there any listeners who've never listen to it, definitely check it out. It's

it's about rules that are meant to be broken and

Jerome is one of the most interesting effective profound people I've ever heard talk about the topic of stuttering and talk about the way that it can change a room change of space.

And just the layers of it both in the internal nature of it, but also this.

Higher power in nature of it. It's it's amazing.

So I listen to that segment and then I just reached out to him. And as I said, I'm writing this book. I would love to meet you and interview and

The first time we chatted it was in the first year the pandemic.

And so obviously everything was very remote and we were talking our distance and we did these multi-hour interviews.

But just long winding and searching open-ended conversations.

Months apart and then roughly a year later. We've finally admit in person and we just immediately had a bond and we've since have

hung out in person many times since

then

one of my happiest days of recently years was when Jerome knocked on my apartment door with a copy of his album declaring.

And we the sat down on my living room couch and listen to it and what?

It all of Jerome's work is worth checking out but especially declaring I think that's a great introduction to his.

The contribution to the world of stuttering.

Maya:

I'm obsessed with the clearing I listen to it all the time, and I'm just it continues to give me goosebumps.

I want to change gears a bit and talk about an article you wrote last year on Coda, which ended up winning the Academy Award even though I'm hearing a person. I found myself really the connecting to the main character and

with my stutter and I'm wondering if you felt the same way and if you can talk about that article and just pop culture and disability. Generally.

John:

Well, I'm a hearing person. I'm not a deaf person.

So I'll never truly know or understand what it's like to be a deaf person. I'll never know the layers of that. I'll never know the nuances of it and I'll never

pretend to

What I hope I can understand.

Is the broader challenges around communication when the overwhelming majority of the population communicates one way and you communicate it another way?

and when that overwhelming majority judges you because

you communicate another way or they have these false assumptions about you.

What I loved about Coda was the way that it portrayed the definite characters with round lives. They they had interest the dad is a music fan and you know the clearly we're not

pigeon holders just

People with disabilities. I thought that was a

major achievement

what I

thought was curious was a the hero of the movie is the hearing protagonist.

And is on this journey self-discovery.

and

one of the

one of the smaller messages of the movie is that

in some ways caring for her Deaf Family is holding her back.

And I I thought that was interesting message and you know movies don't have to be moral and viewers don't have to agree with every single thing in a movie.

but I thought that was an interesting message in the

disability

movie and clearly a lot of people love that movie.

And other people took issue with it when I wrote that article.

I interviewed some deaf people to get their perspectives on it and they had really

nuanced interesting takes on it that

changed my perspective and I think

me the article just worth reading.

one disability movie that I truly loved and that I think everyone should watch is

the sound of

metal

have you seen that my I have not it came out a year or two before Kota?

and it also got some Oscar nominations and it's rhythmed plays it drummer who is

hearing person there's whole life and then he goes deaf because he plays like

Metal music essentially and so he loses his ability in his thirties and the whole movie is about the way.

He has to radically adjust his whole life and turn everything. He knows upside down and it does just this incredible job of exploring.

cheering something

Versus accepting something and that tension that people would disabilities live with oh and so I would have highly recommend that if you ever seen it.

Maya:

I can't believe I haven't seen it yet. I'm definitely going to get on it and and watch it at some point.

Let's get into some listener questions. One of my Instagram followers is Taco editor at the Texas monthly. I don't know if you've if you know him or not, but his name's Jose and I think his last name is okay. So okay, of course, you already know him. Okay. So yeah. So his question for you is how has the book shaped your current view of your stutter and your future as a journalist.

John:

I mean I can't hide from it anymore. It's just not an option. It's completely off the table to be covered.

and

that's interesting one hand. It's liberating.

on another hand

it's it's hard, you know, I

I

without a doubt I feel better now than I did five or ten years ago when I was much more.

cover and when I wasn't

public about the university stutters

But on the other hand.

Sometimes I feel like I'm walking around with.

a

s on my chest and that it's the only thing

That I'm identified by.

but I think I'll

keep pursuing other journalism topics long before writing about the topic of stuttering. I wrote about many other topics and journalism music politics.

Just cross it.

bored

and I don't think that'll change after this book all always be interested in the topic stuttering and I'll always be up for talking about it.

But I'm looking forward to going back to the wider worlded journalism. There's million things out there to write and think about

but confronting this aspect that myself and just learning so much more about disability over the past few years.

Has changed my life and it's informed.

everything I've

written and

Pursuit sense talking about

Maya:

journalism is one of my favorite topics. It's actually what I do for my day job. So I'm not a journalist in my day job, but part of what I do is policy advocacy supporting local journalism. And that is definitely a theme that's comes up in your book just the evolution of the newspaper industry and you were in the middle of all of that before you landed at the Atlantic. So that was super interesting for me and really related to what what I work on on a daily basis one of the other questions that I wanted to make sure to ask you is from another listener Gina chin and Davis and her question is what's one mindset shift.

You'd like to see both people who stutter and non people who stutter make in the name of progress and acceptance

John:

right now, I think.

This world of stuttering falls into two disparate camps.

There are the people who?

Go to NSA meetings and conferences or other.

self-help groups

and are proud to be people who are I mean you name your podcast crowd stutter?

and where t-shirts that promote acceptance of stuttering and

take part in international Centurion awareness day all of that.

And I commend all of those people I commend that entire portion of this population.

But it's a small portion the population of people who studied it's a very very small portion. There's a much larger portion of population people who stutter

that are doing the exact opposite of that that are not only covert but are

Not confronting it in any way that are not bringing it to this surface not talking about it with friends and family or colleagues or employers.

and living

with

a lot of pain a lot of Shame the reason I know this is because

people have email me.

Their stories the amount of emails I get that are in.

that camp versus

the other camp

there's just no comparison.

So I think

this movement of acceptance around stuttering needs to

come up with

more ways in

you know, not everybody is ready to wear a t-shirt to go to a conference to

Call themselves.

the person who's a person who's

the person who stutters would broadcast it.

And there has to be some middle ground. It has to be okay to

be ambivalent about it to kind of exist in that.

Gray area we got to meet people where they are.

and just create

venues for nuance and open conversation.

Maya:

I completely agree. And I'm so glad you said that because for me like I like want to example from my

Perspective too just to add on to what you just said is I've asked.

Several people and invited them on the show and they said I'm not ready. It's not something I want to.

do and it's like that's totally okay, like everyone's at I do different part in their journey, and I totally agree we need to

do a better job of meeting people where there are and being okay with where they're at in their Journey. The last question we have is from another listener.

and I'm actually really excited to ask this because

yeah, it's it's something I too am curious about is there something you learned about yourself or your stutter while making the New York Times video?

John:

I think I learned.

that I'm always gonna be a little

uncomfortable with it

I don't know if I'll ever get to a place of Total Comfort.

total relaxation

that

video came about because the documentarian James Robinson

or who had made this incredible short documentary about his own disability.

James was asked by the time to make three more videos about

three different disabilities and James we have

to me and he said he went to make a

film about you know about stuttering and would I come in?

to the New York Times building

and just allow him to interview me.

And I went in and I was there in their studio for many hours and talking about the ins and outs of this and the mechanics of the daily challenges of it.

and you know being under lights and looking in into a camera is

deeply uncomfortable and

I it was physically uncomfortable with mentally uncomfortable. It was emotionally uncomfortable.

but it was an opportunity and I I felt like

It's just one of these things that he can't pass up and if someone is interested enough in this.

Disability that only one percent of the population has and you need to say yes, you do it.

but making that video which

Are you know it only ends up being seven or eight minutes in the end?

Making that watching it.

I'm not entirely comfortable and I can like

keep getting older and I can keep working on my daily acceptance and keep trying to make peace with my own stutter and I've made

tons of progress on all those friends but part of making peace was all so realizing

I'm never going to get to a place where it's just this total.

neutral part of me there's something in my book that the writer journalist Nathan Keller says, which is whenever you have a block

it's like you're

connected to your entire history.

and you know you could be in your mid 30s at a

Michelin start restaurant

ordering bottled wine and

be being an adult in every sense of the word.

But you block on that first letter it takes you right back to first grade.

and I couldn't agree more and

that too is just things that we have to learn to live with.

Maya:

Oh my gosh. I I love that. It's over. It's a reminder for me that it's okay to not be. Okay, one of the other things that we didn't get into but I'll just end with this is I think I'm still trying to untrain myself to not just a not just ignore the feelings associated with my stutter.

and to really take time to feel those things because

the more I feel the feelings the more I can.

Be at a better genuine.

Place about my relationship with my stutter. So on that note, let's get to the most important question of all where can people find your book.

John:

Thank you so much my really appreciate it and really grateful for your thoughtful.

Questions and for all the work you do on this podcast.

My book is life on delay and it's currently available for pre-order wherever you buy books.

Amazon Barnes & Noble or Festival your local bookstore

It comes out on January.

19th

and it'll be available everywhere.

And there is also in audiobook that comes out that same day.

and as mentioned

Earlier in the show. I'll be traveling around a bit through from the end of January through much of the spring and I would

love just to keep meeting as many people who stutter as a can having conversations and

treating

Experiences that's my favorite part of this whole project.

And thank you again Maya for having me on here. It was an honor.

Maya:

And that's it for this episode of proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced and edited by me my chupkov. Our music was composed by Augusto Denise and our artwork by Mara Ezekiel and Noah chukov.

If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode visit us at www.proudstutter.com, and if you like the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast want to leave us a voicemail check out our show notes for the number to call in more importantly tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening be proud and be you.