Real Talk with Mom: Stuttering Acceptance vs. Fluency

Transcript

Maya :

You feel good mom. 

Patty, Maya’s Mom:

Yeah, you're making me more nervous. But I'm fine.

Maya:

Just try to be natural. Just pretend that you're just talking to me. Okay? 

Patty:

Sounds good.

Maya:

I’m Maya, and I’m a woman who stutters.

Cynthia :              

And I'm Cynthia and I know nothing about stuttering.

Maya :          

And this is Proud Stutter, a podcast about changing the conversation about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity, in an effort to change how we talk about it, one conversation at a time.

Hi, everyone, welcome back to proud stutter. We have our very first guest interview of the series. And it's with my mom say Hi mom.

Patty :             

Hi, Mom!

Maya:

So I'm so excited to have my mom on as our first guest. My mom has been there for me through thick and thin and she's always wanted what was best f-for me. She's been my rock through all the bullying and just has always been an inspiration for me and really helping me just keep going. And I think it will be really interesting to hear her side of things when it comes to my stutter. Some of the things we will be talking about include speech therapy, school, fluency, and acceptance. Cynthia won't be joining for this interview since it's going to be just me and my mom. So I guess my first question is at what age did you notice my stutter? And what was your initial thought about it? 

Patty:

Well, you were my firstborn. So I didn't have any other child to compare it to of my own. But I recall when you first learn to speak, you know, around the ages of two and three at the beginning, I noticed a hesitancy and a repeat, which I guess someone could say that that's when the stutter I noticed it, but it didn't seem too unusual in children. You were also bilingual early on. Um so I thought maybe that had something to do with it. And I did mention it to the pediatrician s-several times while you were young and growing up and was told, Oh, don't worry, they grow out of it. 

Maya:

So you noticed my stutter at around two or three y-years old? 

Patty:

I mean at that point I didn't really wasn't concerned but I remember thinking oh, she's hesitating and repeating trying to get words out. So I guess in retrospect, that was probably the manifestation of a stutter, but I didn't, in my mind, categorize that as Oh, she's stuttering, it was just I looked at it more as like your maybe just the way you were developing your speech. 

Maya:

Yeah, because ever since I could remember I had I had a stutter, but I guess it makes sense that it was earlier. So I-I know you talked a little bit about this. Like how worried were you about my stutter? Like did you hear that? B-because I-I know like I've heard other p-parents talk about their child who stutters and a-a lot of them are told that you know, it's nothing to worry about. What did you do about my stuttering once you kind of r-realized it might not be something that is just associated with childhood? 

Patty:

Well, that's why I can sort of gauge when I thought it was more of a concern because it stood out more because I think when other kids after the two-three age generally speech is more developed when you get five, six, and seven. And you demonstrated hesitancy and stuttering that I didn't see with others. So I thought, wow, this is not, doesn't seem to be the norm with others. And that I know is after five because that's when I reached out and I had heard from other families when there's a potential disability, you know, we were in the public school system, so I reached out to the teacher, or maybe the teacher even brought it to my attention I either way that we reached out within the school district because the school provided speech therapists I knew that it's part of an IEP, individualized educational assessment. 

Maya:

Yeah, I remember when I was that young, how I would have to get pulled out of class. That was really the first time I really noticed that I was different because I th-think a lot of schools when they s-set up speech therapy, they might not be thinking about how pulling the the the kids out of school could impact them. ps-ps-psychologically. 

Patty:

Yeah, I think we decided and I wasn't as knowledgeable at the time I thought, oh, speech therapist she's used you know, let's utilize this whole services because she's that person's used to dealing with young kids and perfect they they said two or three times a week, and obviously a school therapist, you know, was doing it during school hours, so they would have to pull the child out and sometimes I understand, I wasn't part of any of those, snd actually, that's one thing in retrospect, I would have liked to observe some of those therapy sessions that I understand that that you would be pulled with other kids. If there were any at the time that also required you weren't like solo one on one correct sometimes there were other kids in your session? 

Maya:

There probably were other kids. I just don't remember. And looking back now that I'm really thinking about it, I what I really remember most about that time period is more on the people's reactions to my stutter, not the stuttering itself. Like I remember, people just getting really confused, they just didn't understand what it was. The reactions followed me throughout my entire life. It was always the reactions that I was af-fraid of rather than the stuttering itself. I remember being bullied at school and I remember there were some, there were a lot of instances where it had to do with my stuttering. But I'm wondering, from your side of things, if you recall a specific incident at school related to my stuttering that sticks out? 

Patty:

No, I-I never witnessed any bullying. I obviously witnessed you stuttering in front of friends, but I remember you feeling uncomfortable when you're trying to get your words out and it didn't happen all the time. You were more fortunate than than others. And then I looked, I found the Stuttering Foundation and we ended up, because you hated being pulled out and I understood that, and I just didn't feel maybe that the therapy was that effective? And I think with more research I found, wow, I got to find a therapist that really focused her practice and understand stuttering. So I went through Stuttering Foundation and found a private therapist. She told me that if she would have been able to work with you prior to five that's that's, in whether or not like this is what I clearly remember, if she would have had a chance to work with you before five when I guess the vocal cords are more you know, I don't know developed that she could have largely almost like cured your stuttering. I don't know if that's true. That's what I recall hearing 

Maya:

Yeah, I remember her and I remember driving t-to Pasadena w-with you mom like w-was it e-every other week or e-every week? 

Mom:

I don't know I think we did it a very intense we started off every week and then it 

Maya:

Yeah 

Mom:

would go you know periodically and I remember her saying that there was tools like she gave Gotta have my remember to use her tools and that was a couple comments that started out she felt that you had a lot of self-esteem, which I was so that's so great because she felt that and I remember hearing from teachers that teacher said it doesn't inhibit Maya asking questions and participating, which I felt Wow. So lucky because a lot of people can be shut down and afraid. 

Maya:

Yeah. And just reflecting on speech therapy. I remember I felt a lot of pressure to be fluent. Um, and I think the the reason why my speech improved looking back is because I got so good at hiding that part of myself like it just it may have appeared it got better when really I was just stepping up my mental gymnastics and trying as hard as I could to hide it. 

Mom:

That's so interesting. 

Maya:

Another thing too, that I've never shared with you is because I just remember feeling so exhausted after each therapy s-session. J-just because it took so much out of me like mentally to like, do all this stuff and remember all th-the tools and I hardly ever practiced them outside of therapy because I just didn't have the energy. You know, I was very high achieving when I was in school. And having all these tools to practice was just another kind of thing I had t-to think about when I never really wanted to do it in the first p-place. But at th-the same time, I really appreciate you like really going above and beyond t-to help me especially b-because at that time I really did hate my stutter like I felt so alone in it. And I didn't really know anyone else who stuttered until I think I was in college, was the first time I ever met met s-someone that stuttered now that I have more the language to d-describe my experience I really started passing as fluent which really means that I started just becoming, you know, I th-this other part of me that wasn't really my authentic self that didn't stutter, but d-deep down, it's like I knew I still had th-the stutter in me.

Patty:

That's interesting, commenting that hiding in your authentic self. I-I just try and I guess I need time to think about that. Not that I mean, I'm glad to hear that honest opinion cover sort of covering up the stutter. And I guess, me confusing that with tools or improvement. 

Maya:

Yeah, and I think that's why I'm so glad we're having this con-conversation because I don't think it's black and white. I think stuttering what's so what's so hard about it is it's it's still very misunderstood even in science, like there really isn't a cause for stuttering. And, you know, it's so inconsistent like one kid could have a stutter and then they outgrow it wh-when they're 18. You just never know. And sometimes I've talked with people that have had a childhood stutter, and then they g-g-g-grew out of it and then, you know, they turned 30 and suddenly it's come back so stuttering is just still such a mystery. And because it's so easy to just carpetmentalize stuttering is like, okay, this person has a stutter, we need to get rid of it and then they'll be happier like, that's so and I right and I thought th-that way for a long time too until recently when really it's when I started thinking about stuttering and l-learning more about it because so much of me for most of my life have ignored my stutter. When it came up. I just tried my hardest to just ignore it and just pretend it wasn't there. And I even, whenever I heard someone else stutter, I could not be in the same room with them. Because if I can't deal with someone else's stutter that I'm stuttering with, and I'm embarrassed for them, like how do people view me if I feel that about other stutterers 

Patty:

I mean, I can learn so much even though I think quote Yeah, I did a good job. You know, it's so important to have this conversation because I think you're right, in my mind. It was like my kid needs help. I'm going to do whatever it takes. And, you know, at that point, the therapist was available, you know, in the evening and it's a long day. Didn't want you to miss school and it was evening appointments and you're exhausted and it's not just like you said to fix it she is going to improve right see improvement. There's so much more and and like you said accept like the acceptance of someone else's uniqueness, and talk about those issues that come on whether it's speech or or disability or someone's a little different and how we can have these conversations. And so it's not just one person. We're trying to fix something that we don't see as mainstream, because um I think that's how I was looking at what can I do to help my kid whatever it takes. Now, I learned that there's more that we can do. 

Mom:

Yeah, and I think mom like honestly, I think you did everything right. I think I turned out just fine.

Patty:

Yes

Maya:

I really just want to you know, have those con-conversations about self acceptance because the earlier kids and adults can really start accepting this th-themselves and th-their stutter, the more free they will be and the more so they won't, like carry this way. Of like, it's because it's ph-physically it's physically, mentally psychologically exhausting to have a stutter. Now that I am more accepting of my stutter. I feel so much more confident. And I feel that people are really wanting to know more about stuttering now that I'm coming out coming out about it. And I'm also c-c-curious, did you ever speak openly about my stutter to Aba or Noa? 

Patty:

Oh, I never felt it. Was something to hide and I felt there was always an eye. I recall we spoke about it. I mean, we wouldn't just bring it up. I mean, it was something that we would talk about in the family. My dad stuttered, he noticed that you were stuttering. So my my Dad.. 

Maya:

Wait, I didn't know Grampy had a stutter. 

Patty:

Yeah, right. It was not as I think as pronounced as yours was but something we talked about and I remember him talking to you. He didn't want to make it that big of an issue. I don't think it was a huge issue in our family. It was something you were getting therapy for. And we saw improvement right away. So I always felt grateful that you felt better. I mean, I certainly felt better as a parent, you just don't, you know, my heart would go out anytime my kids would struggle. And that's a process for a parent. It's like Oh, my goodness, you know, you got to let your kids make mistakes or struggle sometimes in those struggles. There's learning experience and it was always focusing on self love. So I felt that it wasn't such a big deal in our family. 

Maya:

And it's it's wild t-to me that I don't remember having that conversation with with with the Grampy because I'm sure I did um especially if you know if he had to start I'm sure we've talked about it, but I think I just tried so hard, like I said to ignore my stutter and not think about it that maybe I have all these suppressed memories of stuttering 

Patty:

Or maybe you just didn't let her in. Because your therapist said it didn't seem to bother you and I didn't bother me. I was remind me I was wrong. But I thought wow, that's I'm so proud of my daughter. She just she still contributes she just in the class. She doesn't let it bother me and I'm like and that because I remember the therapist saying the only downside of Maya not letting it bother her is maybe she's not working on her tools by give her. And I was like, wow, that's that's I'm so happy my kid and again maybe that's not the whole story is like you were this confident can didn't let it bother you. Maybe there's more to it. Like you said it's not so black and white. 

Maya:

Because I think you know before I really started hiding my stutter or before I knew how to hide my stutter. I-I just remember feeling such pain because, you know, I hated being different. And I hated the way stuttering made me feel and I think that's why I just stopped letting it bother me because it was so painful, you know, not everyone who stutters can hide it you know? They're overt stutters that no matter how hard they try, it's like that's just how there's so many d-different f-forms of stuttering. But f-for me, I became a covert stutter, I hid my stutter. I could do that. When I had that shift of like starting to hide my stutter, I definitely felt good, but now when I look back, it's like I was hiding a huge part of myself and it was hard for me to really connect with p-people until after I opened up t-to them about my stutter because once that line was crossed, that's when I really could connect t-to someone because they could see my au-authentic self and understand me more. I also remember when I was going through therapy, I would constantly label my stuttering as something negative and that s-something w-was wrong with me because I was spending so much time trying to get rid of it. I mean, outwardly it seemed like I was con-confident but inwardly I was just so hard on myself and I would never give myself a break and I would always just criticize myself every time I stuttered, but no one really could see that because I may appear fluent and I'm o-okay but deep down I have that that I'm c-criticizing myself constantly because society does not accept me for who I am. 

Patty:

And, I mean, I get that and I guess the part that I'm trying to understand is acceptance for sure and then also, it's okay to improve or to help someone improve, and that doesn't mean it's bad the way you are, but I don't have a stuttering but I'm constantly trying to improve the way I speak or other areas of myself. So I guess when you first said why I think stuttering we should just accept it. I sort of got the sense that that was against, like speech therapy. And working on improvement. I think that's where I was like, Well, I totally understand and agree self acceptance, and if anything, I could go back in time and assist you with the self acceptance but I think we did because I think you're pretty well developed and have a good head on your shoulders and feel good about yourself. But I think the two can be aligned. So Maya, when you say you know self acceptance and accept the stuttering which I 100% stand by and support, how do you feel, what are your thoughts, if you were a parent and does that negate the self acceptance negate speech therapy improvement? 

Maya:

So I was in speech therapy around 20 years ago, and speech therapy has really evolved since, to have acceptance be the focal point of treating stuttering. And I think improving the stutterers quality of life is really at the center rather than improving their fluency. It's more about helping the kid say what they want to say instead of saying helping the kids say what they w-want to say in this certain way that 

Patty:

I think is wonderful. Is that the approach because I don't know what the curriculum is for speech therapist, but it's, I don't know does it incorporate now, like is how common is that psychotherapeutic combination?

Maya:

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I-I don't know. But I do know that in 2018, the keynote speaker at the National Stuttering Association, her hour long speech was all about this shift in speech therapy. 

Patty:

That's wonderful to hear. Because that's, that's like creating the whole person. Right. That's the movement probably in the last 40 years, but I think incorporating and into speech therapy is the whole person. 

Maya:

Yeah. And I do think you know, there is a balance because I totally can get why. You know, a parent especially would want their kid to work on their speech. I totally support that. But at the end of the day, stuttering is a medical condition. It's not something that you can just improve over time. There's no cure for stuttering. And so whether it goes away or not, I think we just need to have this more acceptance and pridefulness of our stuttering and other disabilities because we don't know if it's going to g-go away and why not embrace that rather than trying to trying so much of your energy to get to hide it or get rid of it or improve it however you want to say it? 

Patty:

I think that's so important, especially if the only or even if it wasn't the only therapy that a child is given is in school because school like you said the fear of being singled out and how does a classroom address that? How did the speech therapist address that? How does a teacher in a classroom address that, so and a lot of kids don't have the luxury of private therapists or even parents that support any type of therapy for their child. So I think that hearing that is so important, such great news, 

Maya:

And I think also there is a power in letting children with centers know that they're not alone, because really, it's all about not feeling alone. And I think if I knew other kids that stuttered too, it would have helped with my own acceptance. So thank you, mom for being so honest. And I think we both learned a lot from each other. But my last question for you to end the episode is what advice would you give other parents knowing what you know now? 

Patty:

I would definitely stick to your gut. You know, and I mean, this goes not just with speech therapy, but to if there's something with your child that you want to assist them with. Even if you're being told by a doctor, hey, no, this is normal. Always go with your gut. And I again, I learned so much at the time, even though it was 20 years ago from the Stuttering Foundation, and it sounds like hearing from you that they've even continued to improve and including the whole person in their approach. Because I think exactly what you said parents aren't alone. You can learn from each other and children you don't want them to feel alone. So reach out. And I think that in retrospect, I wish I would have done that. You know, there were probably more groups I could have attended and had you attend. So one other point, I think is to reach out to the teachers like I would have done that. More in retrospect and not only you know, so they can address with the class not only if they have a child that stutters but is there other issues like there's so much more emphasis now on inclusion? And that that, I just hope that the topic for all teachers to bring up and that could help people that stutter or all the numerous areas that kids feel like they're the only one with a certain whether it's a condition or other disability that to bring up more so 

Maya:

And I just want to add to that one last thing, the International Stuttering Association, we stutter.org They have monthly webinars on different topics that you can connect with other stutters so there was actually a there was a parent one a few weeks ago or a few months ago that I attended, where parents would talk about, like, you know, ways to help their kids and just relating to one another and they also had one I think around working as a person that stutters so definitely check out westutter.org. There's a ton of resources out there. And yeah, thanks for listening to our show. Big thank you to my mom. Thanks, mom for being so open with me and for just being the best mom, thank you so much for asking me to be a part of this, and I can't wait to learn more.

And that's it for this episode. I’m Maya.

Cynthia:

And I'm Cynthia, and you've been listening to proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced by me my two colleagues, and edited by me, Cynthia. Our music was composed by Augusta Denise and our artwork by Mrara Ezekiel and Noa Chupkov.

Maya:

If you have an idea or want to be part of future episodes, find us on Twitter at proud stutter. You can also find us at www.proudstutter.com.

Cynthia:

Drop us a note or share a voice memo. What's your stuttering story? What topics would you like us to cover? And what are you curious about and if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast. More importantly, tell your friends to listen to until we meet again.

Maya:

Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you.