Stuttering and Looking Beyond First Impressions

Transcript

Maya:

I’m Maya and I'm a woman who stutters.

Cynthia :

I'm Cynthia and I know nothing about stuttering.

Maya:

And this is proud stutter, a podcast about changing the conversation about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it. one conversation at a time.

Cynthia:

Welcome back to proud stutter. We are so excited to interview our first guest who is a person who stutters author James Hayden, his book, Dear World, I Stutter, a series of open letters from a person who stutters, which was released in December of 2017. His book is a recommended resource for many universities and stuttering organizations. He is also a TEDx speaker and has spoken to many audiences about his experience with his stutter.

Maya:

I just want to say how thankful I am to have the internet during these times. I feel like the Internet has really built such a great community of people who stutter and it really has allowed James and I to meet and one of the things James and I talked about before is how difficult first impressions can be for us as stutterers. So James, could you tell us a first impression story and how you navigated the situation?

James:

Yeah, so there was a new employee orientation for my job. And this was almost four years ago at this point. I-I-I-I got there. We were divided into two, two different small groups. And part of the exercise was we had to go around the table and say what are our similarities and what a-a-a-are differences? So I said in my differences, I-I-I-I'm a person who stutters as a way of of just disclosing off the bat, because I was going to be with this group for the-ah-ahah-ah rest of the day. And then the orientation leader comes around, picks on someone a-a-at my table and says, you know, what are your strengths? Wh-wh-what are those similarities and differences? And uh the person who-who-who was speaking for the group said, Oh, I said, one of our differences is that we have a person that stutters and the orientation leaders st-starts laughing, and everyone in-in the room probably 1-200 people, they all disappear. And in that moment, it's just me and the o-o-o-orientation leader. And I asked him, again, what's so funny? And yet again, I know what's going on and what he's laughing at, but I'm gifting him that out and he says, I've never heard someone say that before. And I before I could say anything, he runs off to the the the next table, which is a great first impression for a new employee at like new job, isn't it? So didn't leave the best first impression.

Maya:

Well I can definitely relate for me. When I think back about my experiences. Sometimes it's hard for me to remember the really bad ones because I feel like I've just erased them from my memory because they were so painful. Since I started my new job. I have been stuttering a lot more frequently than I normally do. And so that's trickled into my personal life too. So I was ordering a coffee last week and I was stuttering. I f-forgot what word it was, but I was stuttering through my order, and the barista starts laughing at me at first I thought she was laughing. She was laughing at my stutter. But then she said, Oh, I know it's such a long word because the the name of the drink was really long. And so she j-just thought I wasn't remembering the word rather than stuttering but it just kind of put me back into that space of like, stuttering to a stranger and just feeling so incompetent. Like I can't even order a drink. Like what's wrong with me?

Cynthia:

Yeah, I-I think hearing both of your stories, of course, obviously I do not have a stutter myself, but I am Asian American. And something that we say in the Asian American community is that we don't get to start off as a blank canvas, hearing your stories and reading the comments that have come into the stuttering group. Someone wrote that people assume that maybe people who stutter are less intelligent, or or something else, right. They make assumptions based on the stutter that that they hear as soon as they meet you.

James:

So yeah, I think I can definitely relate to feeling like you're judged the moment you open your mouth or the or the moment you show up. It kind of reminds me this, this, this quote, I heard that our vulnerability introduces itself before we can introduce ourselves to people. It's like, we're like our vulnerability is front and center. Every time we speak.

Maya:

That also reminds me of another experience I had, I went to Cynthia's nonprofit Gala. She works at Mission bit, which is a organization that puts on programming workshops for kids in public schools in San Francisco t-to learn how to code and that was the first time since shelter in place that I was in a sea of people I didn't know. And I could sense from the very beginning of the night that I was just gonna stutter. It was just one of those nights and I was stuttering with this one guy the whole night. So I told him, You know, I was having really bad stuttering night and he's like, wait, what I haven't even noticed. And so at first I was like, how have you not noticed? I've been stuttering all night like my first thought was, oh, he's probably just being nice, because what else was he g-gonna say? Oh, yeah, I-I really noticed you had a stutter. Like, I think most people when you say that, they'll j-just be like, Oh, I didn't notice and I also had the th-thought of what if people just choose not t-to notice because it's easier than c-confronting it. So it's kind of like the elephant in the room like people s-sense that there's something different about y-your speech, but just choose to ignore it b-because it's more awkward if they b-bring it up. Have you ever thought about that, James?

James:

Yeah. Yeah, there are times when I'm stuttering and I'm thinking like, this is a really rough stuttering moment. H-How are they how are they not noticing that? I'm not commenting? But I've learned that I think we as people who stutter, we care so much more about the fact that we sound than other than than other people. I've noticed, even if they don't say anything, I can tell by their facial expression. So like, what's going on here? Should I say something? Should I not say something? What's the best way to handle this? Some of those cases I'll just say, Oh, I-I stutter. And you can see they lose their, their inquisitive f-f-f-facial expressions, the elephant in the room is addressed and I find that converssation gets better.

Cynthia:

Do you ever feel like that is a burden for you? Because it that definitely sounds like a positive experience of oh by the way, I have a stutter and they're like, Ah, got it.

James:

Yeah.

Cynthia:

But does it ever feel like oh, I have to now tell people that I stutter because the moment it comes up, I have to explain myself.

James:

Back in the day it did. So for a very long time, identifying as a person who stutters was like the last thing that I wanted t-to do. So I would either I h-h-hide the fact that that I didn't that I was a person who stutters I would pick out different words. I would like put my words in different order. For example, instead of s-saying, you know, where's Walmart? I-I would say, the Walmart, you know, where is it at? Not the most like, coherent sense, but it gets it gets the job done. B-But over the past couple years, and the more vendor involved in like writing in the the stuttering movement, I've found that it's just easier to uh-uh disclose. And it makes those conversations easier. Yeah, there were times it's like, Man, I don't want to do this or or even now on on my really no rough days. And I know I have like this big speaking event. I'm going to be among a bunch of people I don't know. It's like, do I disclose or not disclose? What's the best way to disclose? Do I want to do this? Yeah, there's still those days where I'd rather not have to deal with this. But I still choose to see like, the good of stuttering and the good that's brought me and find an interesting way to disclose. And I find by disclosing and having those conversations with people, they know how to better interact the next time they meet someone who stuters. So that makes it worth it.

Maya:

Yeah, I can definitely relate games t-to your journey from hiding, trying to hide a stutter every chance we c-could get and then just trying to constantly think about your stutter and think about how to hide it and how to avoid certain si-situations. I think now that I have this new mindset around taking pride in my stutter, I it's just changed my life so much. And I'm wondering if that was a similar f-feeling for you as you were writing your book?

James:

Yeah, for sure. Because I no longer like you mentioned earlier when you try to hide the fact that you stutter. And now I'm open about it. I don't want to stutter. Okay, cool, whatever. Like there's more important things going on in the world. And if the person I'm talking to has a negative reaction to it, then that says more about them than it says that then it says about me and by writing my book that did help me get to th-th-that point because in the book, I'm very emotional and honest and vulnerable about this, about this part of myself.

Cynthia:

I'm curious about why you decided to write a book I mean, why did you decide to write instead of doing something else, I know Maya decided to do a podcast. I just think both mediums are really interesting, like especially for, for Maya to do a podcast, where she does have to speak and kind of confront what she's talking about in every episode as part of the podcast. So my question for you is, why did you decide to write it?

James:

This idea came to me closing in on five years, uh so it was early 2017, I wad at my first job out of college, and I was, you know, miserable there to put it lightly. It was one step below my dream job at my dream company. And I had it and I was miserable there and I got that job four months after I graduated, and within a year and a half, I wanted out, was not happy. So I was trying to figure out the next step. I did a little bit of guest lecturing at my local university, and I realized that I liked it, and that it was cathartic for me. And the one topic that I wanted to avoid for all those years, was a topic I enjoyed to di-discuss and talk about, which was, I found that I found that weird at the time. How the one thing I didn't want want to talk about now the one thing that I love t-to talk about, so it's like let me just g-get my story out there. See what happened. So I just wrote down my story, submitted it to the Mighty, and they picked it up, got positive feedback from it. And realize a lot of times I wanted to write about could be in the form of an open letter. So I spent a lot of the summer of 2017 on my nights and weekends just, you know, writing stuff, trying to get my name out there, writing for the stuttering community and just trying to see what could happen. So I spent the next like five, six weeks just writing and editing and formatting and writing and editing and formatting and drafting and self published on December 4, 2017.

Cynthia:

That's a really short turnaround. You did it. You did it in like three months?

James:

Yeah, I self published I did everything myself. So there's probably some commas missing or extra commas or formatting issues, but whatever. I didn't know where this book was go-go-going to take me.

Maya:

Wow, that's very inspiring. And I started the podcast because I started opening up about my stutter and after doing that, it made me realize how much better I felt about myself. Ever since I've started recording and talking about my stuttering. It's just been the most gratifying experience because I'm able to tap into my c-creative side and it also has allowed me to really find the language that I never had to describe my stuttering. I read your b-blog post about kind of entering a v-virtual work e-environment and how that was f-for you and how hearing yourself talk w-was hard, especially if you're like recording yourself. And so I'm just curious because I have a Facebook Live event that I have to do ne-next week and I'm really nervous about it. And I'm wondering, just from your experience w-with that, d-do you have any advice for me or a li-li-listener that might have a public speaking event?

James:

I think the best advice is just to do it. Just Just do it. I know for me, my audience di-didn't care that I stutter. It was a non issue for me. And by doing it, whether we stutter or not, that's like a W for us. It's a win. It's a victory that deserves to be celebrated. And it shows that like we're not letting our stutter like ho-ho-hold us back.

Maya:

That is really good advice. Thanks so much, James for that. And also thank you for being our first guest on the pod who stutters we really loved having you and it was such a great conversation. And that's it for this episode of Proud Stutter.