Stuttering with Confidence: A Conversation with a Speech Therapist Who Stutters

Transcript

Bailey Levis:

When I was first coming out about my stuttering there was a girl that I really liked Hannah and he has have always been the worst. This is before cell phones before caller ID and she lived in house with seven other people. So for me to call her like the likelihood of her answering the phone was slim I couldn't say her name I really liked her I was super nervous so I never called her and one day I finally did and I apologize for never calling I let her know why said you know he has a really hard it's hard for me to say her name and she said, Oh, that's okay. I think it's hot. She totally thought my story was hot.

Cynthia Chin:

That's amazing.

Bailey:

Yeah.

 Maya:

I'm Maya Chupkov. And I'm a woman who stutters.

Cynthia:

I'm Cynthia and I know nothing about stuttering.

Maya:

And this is proud stuttered. A podcast about changing the conversation about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity and an effort to change how we talk about it one conversation at a time.

Cynthia:

Welcome back, everyone to proud stutter. We have a very special guest today for this episode. It's someone that we've been wanting to talk to since we began this podcast. Today we have Bailey Levis. He is a speech-language pathologist at the San Francisco Speech and Fluency Center. Bailey, welcome.

Bailey:

Thank you, Cynthia and Maya, it's, it's so great to be here. I'm really excited for what you guys are doing with Proud Stutter and I'm honored to be here today.

Cynthia:

So in previous episodes, we talked a lot about speech therapists and about how they can be helpful for people who stutter. And so we're really excited to have this conversation today.

Maya:

And I also am really excited to talk with Bailey because not only is he a speech-language pathologist, but he's also a person who stutters and looking back, I wish that my speech therapists also had a stutter, so then they could really understand where I was coming from. I think it would have been a lot more of a positive experience for me.

Cynthia:

We certainly have gotten a lot of comments asking for guests who stutter. So you called and we responded.

Bailey:

That's great. I love talking about speech therapy and about how I support people who stutter and really helping people to become proud of their stutter. So that's, you know, it's one of the things I think is so great about this podcast that you guys are really focusing on, on that pride and that's such an important part of the journey for people who stutter.

Maya:

And we spoke to my mom and this topic came up about how speech therapy has evolved since I took it, I took it around 20 years ago and I know that the speech therapy sector has really um started, or has incorporated acceptance as a big part of their practice. So I'm just really excited to dive in. I'm curious to know more about you and your stuttering journey.

Bailey:

Yeah, well, I could talk all day about this. I've been stuttering since I was somewhere between four and six years old. So it's, it's something that's been with me for essentially my whole life. Um, and I was very covert for a lot of my you know, certainly for my entire youth and a lot of you know, into my early adulthood. Um and that started to shift I started to sort of come out about my stuttering in my mid-20s. And that eventually led me to where I am now. Doing speech therapy and having this private practice where I'm working almost exclusively with people who stutter. And so I feel very blessed that I've been able to to to take this challenge of stuttering and turn it into s-something very positive in my life.

Maya:

I'm also curious to know since you have had a stutter, since you were young like me, when in your life did you decide you wanted to be a speech therapist and specialize in stuttering?

Bailey:

That's a really good question. It definitely came to me later in life. I guess to give a little bit more background. Before becoming a speech therapist. I I was a scientist. I was doing genetic research on stuttering. So I was actually in a Ph. D program studying Brain and Language and genetics and how all of these things r-r-relate to stuttering. And at some point, I realized that the day-to-day life of being a research scientist wasn't what I wanted to do. So I I I left the PhD, took a master's degree, moved back to the Bay Area where I where I where I grew up, and was actually standing in line at a pub and an acquaintance of mine who was a teacher asked me some questions about stuttering. She had a student in her class and that moment I realized this is what I want to do. I want to support people who stutter. I had asked myself the question for many years, why do I stutter? You know, I felt cursed because of the stutter. And so I was really wondering, what are the causes of stuttering? And that's how I got into the science. And then I had this sort of Epiphany where I realized that the question I was actually asking when I was asking myself, why do I stutter is what is my purpose? What's my purpose here in this lifetime? You know, stuttering isn't something that we can, you know, for for most of us as adults, we-we-we're gonna have to, you know, face our stuttering and manage it for our entire lives. But we don't have to let it stop us from living our lives to our fullest.

Cynthia:

I noticed that for people who stutter, too, when they're describing their stutter, and what they're describing the feelings around their stutter, they use a lot of words that are quite, they're quite heavy. Um so you just said right now you felt like you had a curse. We we read some posts on Reddit where people said they were petrified or terrorized. And, and to me, I'm like, wow, that is that is so much emotion that I just can't imagine that's that's hidden beneath the surface. And I feel like I've seen it over and over and over these words that we don't really use that much in everyday life because we're rarely petrified. We rarely feel like we're cursed. So, I'm curious about the students that you work with and how this affects them this fear?

Bailey:

Yeah, and, you know, it affects you know, not just the, you know, the students but the adults I work with, and you know, sometimes it affects the adults e-eeven more because they have a whole lifetime of these feelings that have been these feelings and experiences that have been sort of building up.

Maya:

I was on a Facebook live with my boss and we were doing a live about this new program I'm starting. I told my boss before in our prep that I probably was going to stutter, and I knew a lot of people that I admired and respected. Were going to be tuning in. And in that moment, even though I've done so much work, I still felt that fear of being misjudged by the people that I really respect. And so I disclose that I had a stutter in the beginning, and I felt so much better after that, like it still does impact my conf-fidence at work, but finding a job and a boss and colleagues that accept my stutter and accept me is something that I'm just so grateful for. And I know not every workp-place is like that. And you know, they're like in my some of my p-p-previous jobs, I would get a lot of negative feedback at work for stuttering because my my previous um colleagues would think I didn't p-pprepare e-enough and so that really was just so like, mentally, like I just felt so incompetent. That's when I really like hate my stutter that the most is when I think that it might get in the way of my future success.

Bailey:

Yeah. And I think this is such a common experience. You know, the stuttering robs our confidence. You know, it definitely gets in the way of, you know, our careers and the kind of jobs we think we can do or you know, that we feel like we should be able to do or shouldn't do and you know, if you're, you know, all the time from, from adults who stutter who feel you know, who said similar things Maya about they think that because I'm stuttering that I'm not well prepared, and I'm not doing my job well enough and you know, then that kind of it all spins out of control. For me when I was younger, it impacted the classes I would take in college. I would drop classes if I had to give give give give a presentation. I didn't really date much, because I was afraid of stuttering. And what I was afraid is that they would think I'm stupid.

Maya:

I can totally relate to that there was this public speaking class that one of my favorite p-p-professors was teaching senior year of of college and I really wanted to take it and I signed up and everything, and then I dropped out the last minute and my teacher' is like oh, why did you reject drop out like he really wanted me to take in I was like, oh, like, it conf-flicts with like another class but I was just my like, I was just like, I was so excited. And then this voice in my head, w-w-was like, I just don't want to go through the emotional roller c-coaster of having to like public speak like literally twice a week.

Bailey:

You know, I know a lot of people who stutter who joined Toastmasters and they find it incredibly help h-helpful. As far as improving some of their their public speaking skills, and a lot of it is their comfort, you know, and a lot of it again is this, you know, like, what are the thoughts that we have about ourselves in those situations? And what are the stories that we tell ourselves? You know, do we tell ourselves you know, it's too hard, I can't do it, or, you know, if I stuttered, they'll think I'm not prepared, and they'll think I'm not smart. You know, so shifting, being able to shift those thoughts, you know, again, is it's an important part of o-o-our journeys. And, you know, when I, when I have clients come to me, you know, to say a similar situation about dropping the class or, you know, the fear of the challenges. In my mind, I'm thinking this is fantastic, like, what a great opportunity to work on tolerating the discomfort of stuttering, to work on stuttering proudly, and, you know, what a great way to, you know, to really face the fears and face the challenges and and and that's, I think that's really what, in my mind, that's what Stuttering Therapy is about. It's about identifying uncomfortable situations and helping people to be comfortable in those uncomfortable situations. And you know, I feel like t-th-the disability of stuttering isn't getting a little bit stuck on a word, but it's all the ways that we don't participate. And it's all the things that we a-a-avoid doing in our lives or the things that we a-avoid saying, that's the disability. And, you know, it can impact what we order when we you know, order food or drinks at restaurants, it can really be pervasive, you know, I mean, I still don't really like going to parties, where I don’t know people, you know, I'll do it. But I'm also very good at coming up with excuses for not going so it's you know, can really impact all aspects of our lives and the confidence piece is such a big part of it.

Cynthia:

Yeah, changing your order because of a fetter. I've never thought about something like that. It's, yeah, it just seems very consuming. If you don't, if you don't kind of take a hold of it and say, you know, this is something that I have and, and be proud of it.

Maya:

That makes me think of a Tik Tok actually, that I recently saw th-this young woman I f-forget her name, but we'll include the clip in the show notes. She does a fabulous job of spreading awareness of stuttering by taking video clips of her day to day life with a stutter and one of the clips is about her ordering. The first thing she said to the drive thru person is this is this might take a long time, so just bear with me. So she really makes it very accessible for people to understand what it's like for a person who stutters.

Baily:

Yeah, ordering a drive thru is incredibly hard for many people who stutter. It's hard and it stirs up a lot of emotions. And I have you know, I have adults crying during our sessions, you know, because it's, it's hard and but that's, that's, that's where the work is. And from from there, that's where the success comes. And it's powerful and it's, it's, it's, it's great work.

Cynthia:

I think maybe one of the reasons why stuttering is so misunderstood, is because of all the people who were able to overcome the challenge of having a stutter. I just remember when we were announcing proud stutter, I got a lot of messages that were saying, you know, oh, like, you know, I used to have a stutter. But you know, it's so easy you just go to you know, you just go to a speech therapist, and you can get rid of it super easily. And it's like, okay, well, you know, there's a lot of people who can't do that. And if that is the attitude that you have, as a person who used to stutter, then you're misunderstanding the challenges. that are that are built up over time over a lifetime.

Maya:

That's also a dominant narrative that we see in a lot of media is this narrative of overcoming like a lot of celebrities our president, you know, like, the first first person who comes to mind is Emily Lund. There's a lot of articles about her and how she's overcome her stuttering and now she's this huge stuttering advocate, which I think is great. But that isn't the only narrative and that narrative really does overpower a lot of the other narratives that are more that are more widespread. Many people who stutter do not identify with the overcoming narrative.

Bailey:

Yeah, I think it's a really good point, my as there are a lot of public figures who talked about stuttering, you know, Emily Blunt, Joe Biden, you know, maybe we'll see him you know, have some mild stutters here and there Ed Sheran stutters, James Earl Jones, who played Darth Vader, Bruce Willis, Marilyn Monroe, like these are all actors and actresses. Who, who, who stuttered, we've talked about their stutter, yet we don't necessarily see them stuttering, you know, in the public light, you know, being successful being highly successful right. So what w- what what message does that send, it sends a message that you can be successful if you don't stutter anymore, or if you overcome the stutter? And you know, like you said, My I think it's great that we have these public figures who are really advocating for it, you know, and f-for, for people who, who still stutter, you know, very overtly. It's not always easy to connect with some of those public figures.

Cynthia:

Yeah, it's definitely important to have a role model growing up when you have a stutter. Bailey Did you have anyone that you spoke to growing up that also had a stutter or the face similar challenges to you?

Bailey:

I didn't so I stuttering we didn't talk about stuttering, you know, as a child, or even until my mid 20s. That's when I started talking about it with my family. At that time, my mom had let me know that my grandfather also had a stutter. And I had no idea I hadn't known about that until I was probably 25 years old and I um I had very mixed emotions. On the one hand, I was it was exciting to know like, Oh, here's someone you know, who, who, who understands this challenge. And I was angry at my parents for not having shared that with me sooner because I I I had felt alone. Interestingly, once I started to talk more openly about my stutter, I started to meet more people who stutter, just kind of randomly. And and that was that was really important for me to to to meet other people who stutter and to be able to feel like you know, my fear of the telephone isn't some crazy random phobia, that it's like, it's a thing that people who stutter experience I was like, okay, so this isn't normal.

Cynthia:

I haven't heard anyone say telephone in a really long time.

Bailey:

Yeah. Yeah, that I you know, you're you're laughing Cynthia as you talk about it, but yeah, you know, back in the olden days, that that that's what what, what we would do we would you know, pick up the receiver off the off the phone, it would make that dial tone.

Cynthia:

I don't believe you.

Bailey:

I know right. And you know, I mean, I am so old that we even had one of the rotary dial phones.

Cynthia:

No way.

Bailey:

Oh, yeah, way way. No, it's yeah, it's so interesting. You know, like, on one of the assessment tools I use, you know, they ask about and ask us to kids like 789 year old kids, even teenagers, like, you know, is it hard to get a talk on the phone and I'm thinking what seven year old actually talks on the phone anymore?

Cynthia:

Yeah, I talk to my students every week. And they all say key, please just text me. They're, they're all They're all really scared. Of having a conversation on the phone.

Bailey:

Yeah. I mean, it's scary for us, you know, as people who stutter, you know, Maya, I don't know, if you've had the same fear. But yeah, talk on the phone for someone who stutters is uh, I don't I have no idea what it's like as a young kid who's so used to texting but that was that was probably one of my biggest fears until my mid 20s, was talking on the phone. Yeah, I I definitely avoided the phone as well.

Maya:

And I wanted to touch on when you talked about your grandfather and finding out that he also had a stutter because I, I also had a grandf-father that stuttered and this came up in the interview with my mom, and she said that my grandfather and I talked about my stuttering, but I don't remember that. And I it may be because it's like a suppressed memory just because I always just tried to never think about my stutter because it was too painful. So So yeah, that was that that was an interesting because I know there's a lot of research that shows stuttering um is tied to genetics. When I was at UC Santa Barbara, with Cynthia, I think this was junior year. My third year at U-UCSB and I found out that UCSB had a Speech and Hearing Speech and Hearing P-Program. And then I started thinking about Oh, how cool would it be if I went into speech pathology like that would be so awesome to help other people who s-stutter too and I got so excited. I set up a meeting with the Chair of the program and I was telling him about how excited I am that I discovered this program and I would love to minor in it. And, you know, maybe even after school, go to speech pathology school, and we were talking and then I brought up later in the conversation that I had a stutter. It wasn't very, it was a covered s-stutter. And he was like, oh, you know, I wouldn't. I would not r-r-recommend you going t-to speech p-pathology because your clients might you know, see that you still have a stutter and it might have them think that that th-they can n-never get get rid of it. And so after that meeting, I just felt so discouraged like cried and I was like my stutter is just blocking me from all these opportunities. And, yeah, my dream of being a speech therapist died in that office.

Bailey:

So sorry to hear that my ads. You know, I'm really sorry. That th-that he said that it's, it is absolutely false. It's 100% False. You know, I I I have a lot of speech therapy speech therapist colleagues who who have, you know, quite pronounced stutters and and they're very good at their jobs. And I think to the c-co-contrary. And my experience as as a speech therapist,who stutters, who is really focusing on this in my career, that people want to work with me be-because I stutter and like you were saying at the outset, Maya that, you know, having someone who understands the experience is is is really helpful. And so I get a lot of clients who, they, they want to work with me over someone else, you know, in large part because I get it, I I understand the challenge. And, you know, again, like, you know, as I was saying a bit ago, it's not about you know, like, getting rid of the stutter. That's not the goal. And you know, this is, you know, sort of bringing in like the neuro typical movement, you know, stuttering is it's just a, it's just another way of talking, and it's not something that's broken and that needs to be fixed. So the goal and Stuttering Therapy, you know, in my work, anyhow, isn't to help people get rid of the stutter because I can't do that. You know, I can't make it go away. I can't. I can't you know, help people decide when they do or don't stutter or how severe the stutter is going to be in that moment. We don't have control over some of those things because there are differences in the brain, so I help people also to recognize what does success in speech therapy look like, and certainly stuttering more easily is part of that, but Maya if you want to be a speech therapist, you can totally do it. And it's such a great career. There's so many wonderful things that that we can do in this field. Never a dull moment.

 Maya:

Stuttering more easily. I love that. I think that should be our new tagline. Yeah. Yeah.

 Cynthia:

Yeah, I think people tend to forget the therapy part of speech therapist, and they just focus on the speech.

Bailey:

Yeah, a lot of the work that I do, you know, I do a lot of counseling based work, you know, I incorporate a lot of things from the psychotherapy world and most people who are specializing and stuttering are doing that, you know, so, so there really has been this shift and again, you know, the neurotypical movement and the acceptance piece. As I feel like it's vital, you know, I have clients, sometimes I have clients who come in and they don't want to work on that. If it No, I'm fine with everything. I just don't want to stutter anymore. It's like, well, you know, okay, we can try. I can teach you some quote unquote, fluency strategies, and likely we'll be able to use them in our therapy sessions, but it'll be really hard outside of therapy, and you'll get frustrated and you won't be making progress on and make and you'll feel like, you know, I'm not good enough, or I'm not trying hard enough. I need to practice more. And, you know, in my mind, that's not what it's about.

Maya:

So my last question for you at Bailey is what advice would you give eight year old Bailey now that you have reached this part of your journey?

 Bailey:

I would have told him you're not alone. You know, you're not a freak. You're not a weirdo. It's gonna be okay. You know, he will be happy. You will be successful. You will get married. I was a big fear of mine is that, you know, I won't be able to ask someone to marry me, or I won't be able to say I do and I'm, you know, I'm at the altar. You can do this. You don't need to be afraid.

Maya:

Oh, that made me tear up. Oh, my God, that is so cute.