The Unpredictability of Covert Stuttering and Passing as Fluent

Transcript

 Maya:

I'm Maya Chupkov. And I'm a woman who stutters.

Cynthia:

I'm Cynthia, Maya’s longtime friend, and I know nothing about stuttering.

Maya:

And this is proud stuttered. A podcast about changing the conversation about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity and an effort to change how we talk about it one conversation at a time.

So by now, most of our listeners know I have a covert stutter and that is why I am so excited to have my friend Sarah on the podcast because she too has a covert stutter and its been a topic I’ve really been wanting to really dig deep on because it is something I constantly keep thinking about. The hardest part of having of having a covert stutter is it is unpredictable and that is one of the key things Sarah and I talk about. So I am really excited to have Sarah on the show. Welcome, Sarah.

Sarah Nelson:

Thank you for having me.

Cynthia:

So I know that you and Maya are friends, but how did you meet?

Sarah:

Actually so, Maya and I met not too long ago, actually. I got an email from the National Stuttering Association of San Francisco. The day of your guys's podcast launch party, and I saw the introduction for the podcasts as like women who stutters and being a fellow woman who stutters. I hadn't really met that many women who stutters before so I that immediately kind of like intrigued me. Um And then I kind of also just realized that I haven't really been interacting with other people who stutter and haven't really been building community. So I just kind of wanted to go and check it out.

Maya:

Yeah, and that's really what p-proud stutter is all about. It's about building a community and also, those who have friends that have someone that stutters. So Sara, when did you first realize you had a stutter and how was that f-for you? Growing up?

Sarah:

I think I first realized I had a stutter. Probably, when I was old enough to realize kind of the reactions that I was getting from everyone around me every time that I spoke, so that was probably probably as early as second grade. When I you know, would have to get it. Get up in front of the class and say my name and for me, SS were really hard. And so I would pro Pro-prolongate SS. So it would be it would be really hard for me to say my name. And yeah, I guess I just kind of realized that I was different than everyone else around me when I would go to speech therapy and I would get pulled out of class for that. Yeah, that's kind of w-when I realized that I was someone who had disfluencies and I don't know if at that time I knew it was a stutter. I just knew Yeah, I had trouble speaking.

Maya:

And I think our both of our stutters are very similar, like as I'm talking to you now. It I see a lot of similarities and usually when I am in a-a, you know, a virtual space usually around people who stutter it's very, there's a lot of d-different forms of stuttering I hear but it seems like we have very similar stutters and I I've been really wanting to talk about covert stuttering specifically. And I'm, I'm curious, when was the first time you met someone else who stuttered. And how was that for you?

Sarah:

Yeah, um, actually, the first time I met someone who who stuttered was after I graduated college, and I um I was entering the workforce. So I decided to go to a NSA meeting. I think my first meeting I met four four or five other stutters and I just remember, you know, feeling, feeling just connected and not alone and just kind of like at ease, um not feeling like I have to, you know, exert the same energy that I do when I talk to other people who don't stutter. Like I don't, I don't have to hide hide myself. I don't have to use the same techniques with like switching words or um blinking when I'm trying to get a word out, or other techniques that I've I've developed and used over the years. I also felt like the people that I met at the NSA group were more overt shutters, and I felt me kind of um entering that space as a covert stutter was a different experience.

Cynthia:

Yeah, you know, obviously, I feel like I have to remind myself and everyone else that I don't have a stutter, but I feel like what I've noticed with Maya being a covert stutterer, that there is this kind of sense of people wanting authenticity. When you when you finally say, Okay, I'm a person who stutters and it feels like people are like, well, I need to hear it to believe it. You know, so we have gotten comments from the podcast, saying, you know, Maya, you don't stutter enough. And my as like, I'm not stuttering for anyone. I don't know, what was your experience, like when you were in this group? And you clearly had a less pronounced stutter? Did you feel ostracized?

Sarah:

Absolutely. I did. I did kind of feel ostracized, and then and I did kind of, you know, feel like I had to kind of prove myself like prove that I was a stutter and that I didn't belong there. But you know, you you can't control when your stutter happens and it was really hard for me to realize that because I was very fluent. And yeah, I just kind of felt like I like wanted my stutter to come out. at that specific moment, you know, even though I'm in no control over that whatsoever.

Cynthia:

You would think that they would understand, you know, like this person. Yes. She's a covert stutter, but she's here for a reason.

Sarah:

Yeah, exactly. And like she's, she's here because, you know, she wants to build that community and connect with other people who stutter and yeah, not want to not want to be seen as different within that community.

Maya:

Yeah, and I think a lot of it is internal too because I have had the same exact experience being in you know, National Stuttering Association meetings. And when I first started joining those, I felt the same exact way. I felt like I wasn't stuttering enough, and I wasn't really representing people who stutter that the right way. And but then, when I would open up about that and be like, hey, you know, this is what I'm experiencing. I realized it was all in my head because everyone's response was like, It's okay. Like, you know, everyone's s-stutter is different and, you know, you don't like you can stutter as m-much a-as less as you want. And we all know because we're all stuttering that we can't, a lot of times we can't control it. But then I think there's some people, too in the stuttering community that think differently and you know, there was a person who did send us a note that I wasn't stuttering enough, and I'm not even sure if that person stuttered themselves. They didn't d-disclose that but it's just interesting to like to talk about this because it is so internal. And I really struggled with my identity growing up because sometimes I was able to pass as someone who isn't disabled and then I would go through life feeling like, you know, a very typical normal person and then all of a sudden be jerked back to being viewed by others as very disabled. So I've always felt that like that in between of like, not being disabled enough.

Sarah:

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I feel like the you know, phrases that you can get from some people, like really impact you and really make you, you know, feel kind of, like it's all in your head, like, I know, like we've, we've shared that we've gotten some of the same responses like, you know, when you disclose that you're stutter and people say, I never noticed, um, I have word or I have problems speaking to, like, maybe it's just your anxiety, like maybe if you just like slow down some more, you would be fine. Just like phrases like that, that I feel I can make you kind of feel like it's your you know, fault and like that like you can do something about it in those times where you do stutter. I think I think I think that can kind of have a negative impact on your you know, own self image.

Cynthia:

Yeah, what I've learned from doing this podcast is it's very emotional. It seems like for a lot of stutters and covert stutters that, you know, stuttering as a child was a very traumatic experience.

Sarah:

Yeah, I I can definitely pinpoint some some very traumatic experiences in my childhood and early adulthood, even in college too. And I wish you know, I could go back in time and just kind of let those people know that I stutter sometimes and that's okay. You know, instead of them making a big deal, and then you know, asking if I forgot my name. There's this one person who commented in that's very relatable to what we're talking about now when you've known someone for a long time, and I've hid him you're stammer from them for potentially years and years. What's the best way to go about disclosing your stammer without hurting a friend's feelings for not being willing or able t-to share this part of y-yourself with them?

Maya:

So, you know, u-us covert starters, we're still dealing with opening up and sharing these things with our friends and worrying about their r-reaction and all that stuff. And I just I just remember feeling that way because I didn't want people to look at me d-different after I disclosed it. As I started opening up about it. I realized that the reason I am coming out without my stutter is so I can make it easier for everyone else to stutter.

Sarah:

Yeah, no totally Glennon Doyle. She had said something in her latest book untamed before you make anyone else happy, like you have to make yourself happy. And if if if coming out, um as a as a stutter to tell your friends, your family to the community as a whole, like, helps you in your own like, you know, self self journey then like that's what's important and you know, not letting the the fear of being of being judged kind of dictate that. I know I know I let I let that that fear get the best of me like my whole life. But you know now as I'm getting older like what what matters you know, is me being happy and you know, me exerting a lot of energy and time trying to hide my stutter is not helping me.

Cynthia:

So I'm curious about after you disclose to your friends, or you know, maybe not even friends but the people around you that you have a stutter. Do you ever get invalidated? By the people around you? Do you ever feel like people are like, wait, you just said you had a stutter, but I don't hear it.

Sarah:

I've I've never had someone say, I don't I don't think you do. But I I have had people say I've never noticed that before. I know a lot of people are not I know a lot of people but I know someone who stutters like way way more. Like way more overtly. Kind of like maybe insinuating that that they don't think I have a stutter just because they aren't aware or they don't know what covert stuttering looks like. Which I guess in a way yeah. That is kind of like they you know they don't believe me because they know what overt stuttering looks like.

Maya:

For me at least it's worse. When no one believes me that I actually stutter. And especially because they don't see that I put so much effort, like every waking moment to to pass as f-fluent or a-at l-least I used to be like that. And I still find myself being like that too, especially if I'm like doing a presentation or being more in the public. So in those situations, I try really hard to be f-fluent but what's worse than stuttering is when people don't b-believe you when you tell them and I think it's not that p-people are trying to hurt you w-when they when they r-respond. It's just people when they think about stuttering, they have this very stereotypical thoughts about it. And so that's why whenever people r-r-respond like oh, I didn't notice it like, oh, it seems like you've overcome it. If they say any of those types of things. I always try to educate them.

Sarah:

Has there been a time where you have come out as a as a senator to someone and and they've said, Yeah, I I've r-realized that about you, or yeah, I've noticed that and h-h-h-how did that make you feel? Because I had that experience recently and and it was, it was a very good feeling.

Maya:

Yeah, I've actually I don't think I've ever gotten that response before because I only just started opening up about it. And, and really, the only response I've been getting Oh is like I have no idea. So I'm curious about the example that you j-just shared and just more about that.

Sarah:

So what happened actually, this past week, I was at work and talking to my coworker, I just kind of blurted it out and was like, Do you know that I stutter? Um And he was kind of like, yeah, I've realized that you have blocks sometimes or like, pause before you say things. And in that moment, I just kind of felt very validated because he was like, Yeah, I realized that about you. And he didn't make a big deal about it at all. He was like, Yes. And you know, it just felt really good to just kind of like hear that. He saw that part of me, but that there wasn't like anything wrong with me.

Maya:

Yeah, it's so important to have, especially coworkers like that, that just normalize it and kind of just shrug it off that, you know, it's just like stuttering it's not a big deal that just makes your life a lot easier. It makes my life a lot easier.

Cynthia:

I think for a lot of people who don't stutter, it's it can be difficult to understand what it actually looks like for a person who has a stutter. And even more difficult of course, for a person who has a covert stutter, because what I've heard from a lot of my friends as reactions to the show is you know, I don't have a stutter, but I have stuttered at times. Or sometimes I get blocked up saying, when I'm feeling these kinds of ways. So I think you know, generally people have had these one-off experiences, and I say one off just because of the emotional and mental toll that that stuttering has for people who have a stutter. It's different for someone who doesn't, right. You have these moments, and you feel embarrassed afterwards. But it's not traumatic because we're not constantly trying to suppress it. So I think for for someone who doesn't stutter and viewing, you know, and listening to someone who does have a stutter from the outside, it's not always easy to to pinpoint, like, yes, that person has recurring stuttering versus this person who is like, you know, trying to articulate something and they, you know, they repeat the first letter of their sentence a couple times.

Sarah:

I r-r-remember watching a documentary, it was really good analogy that I really liked and it was for people who don't stutter. Speaking is like walking on a two by four. It's really easy to do. It's it's almost like, ha-habitual and routine. But for people who stutter it's like walking on a two by four or a beam, like 10 feet up in the air and and you're not worried about doing it effortlessly. You're, you're worried about just making it through. And I think that analogy was just like, it really like, enlightened just like every time I speak in any kind of situation. I'm like, always worried about what's going to come out and people you know, whether they realize it or not, like, don't really, you know, know the amount of energy it takes to hide my stutter or use the techniques that I've used my whole life. That's a great analogy.

Maya:

Another one I really like. This one is from Dr. Joseph Shi Han. And his analogy is an iceberg only a small portion of the iceberg shows above the water. So the above the water portion represents the things that are visible to others, the physical movements, the sounds, the way someone behaves, while stuttering but what's invisible, the underwater part that refers to everything you don't see when someone stutters like the emotions I feel about stuttering, whether it's fear or frustration or embarrassment, um and it's also the choices I make behind the scenes like the choice to change words or to never raise my hand.

Sarah:

I really like that analogy. So much happens behind the scenes that that people can't see not speaking up in certain sit-situations or avoiding interviews or whatnot. I totally relate to that. I mean, like, I know when I was in college, like um looking for, you know, internships and companies to work for like I remember keeping my my stutter in mind and I was like, is that company name going to be hard for me to say because I already it is already hard for me to say, to say my name when I talk on the phone. So like, let's try to avoid companies. company names that are also hard to say because then it's just a double whammy.

Maya:

Yeah. And related t-to that. I recently spoke to the California Public Utilities Commission’s disability committee. And one of the things I told them that would be really beneficial for for people who stutter that are interested in interviewing for the CPUC is to lengthen their interviews from 30 minutes to an hour because having really tight windows of time to answer questions is really tough for people who stutter. I do have one more question for you, Sarah. And this kind of is something that I've been thinking about myself and I'm just I'm just curious what your thoughts are about it. Do you consider stuttering a disability because I know there's been a lot of debate, at least I've seen of whether or not stuttering is a d-disability and do I id-dentify with with someone as a d-disability?

Sarah:

I do think it is a disability. Looking back on my childhood and boys, the situations that I was in, where my stutter held me back, I kind of really wish that I spoke up and told my teachers or told my professors or told anyone kind of in like, a position of power, you know, that I stutter because maybe that would have, you know, given me the extra time that I needed during presentations or given me the, you know, just extra support that I that I needed. Helped me you know, ffffeel more comfortable in those speaking situations. And I think, you know, in order to to to get that support, I think it does kind of you no need to be seen as a disability.

Maya:

Yeah, Sarah, I totally agree with you on that. And that's why now I fully embrace my disability identity no matter what anyone thinks. It's all about how I feel. And the more I own my identity, the more I can help others. Those who stutter and also those who have other d-disabilities as well.

Sarah:

Yeah, absolutely. My and I think you are all you are already doing that. And I feel like I'm having conversations with family and friends that I probably should have had a long time ago. And yeah, so I just want to say thank you. Thank you for for doing this work, and for helping to normalize stuttering.

Maya:

And that's it for this episode. I'm Maya. And I'm Cynthia, and you've been listening to proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced by me Maya Chupkov.

Cynthia:

And edited by me, Cynthia Chen. Our music was composed by a gusto, Denise and our artwork by Omar, Ezekiel and know what

Maya:

If you have an idea or want to be part of future episodes, find us on Twitter at proud stutter. You can also find us at www dot crowd stutter.com.

Cynthia:

Drop us a note or share a voice memo. What's your stuttering story? What topics would you like us to cover? And what are you curious about

Maya:

and if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast.

Cynthia:

More importantly, tell your friends to listen to

Maya:

until we meet again. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be and be you.