Stuttering, Blackness, and Music with JJJJJerome Ellis, Part 2

Transcript

 Maya:

I'm Maya Chupkov. And I'm a woman who stutters.

Cynthia:

I'm Cynthia, Maya’s longtime friend, and I know nothing about stuttering.

Maya:

And this is proud stuttered. A podcast about changing the conversation about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity and an effort to change how we talk about it one conversation at a time.

Welcome back to proud stutter. And welcome to part two of our interview with Jerome Ellis, musician, and artist and a person who stutters. He just came out with an album titled The Clearing. And in part two, we go more into the album and what Cynthia and I noticed about the album, and it's, it's a really great conversation and we hope you enjoy it.

Cynthia:

I think something that's really unique about your album is all the talk that you have about intersectionality. I think oftentimes in conversations about race and you know, ableism and anything else, we find it really hard to, to incorporate anything else. I think it's hard for us to really imagine a conversation that allows for us to consider multiple things. And I think that you do that really well. And everything that you're talking about these topics are very complicated blackness and stuttering and time and space and music. So I think the way that you have connected all of those topics in your mind, I think it parallels really well with the way that we communicate orally. You know, we have to formulate our thoughts, these very complex thoughts and then we have to translate that into spoken word. So how did you go about that process, translating all those very complex topics and intersectionality and then translating that into poetry that people could understand.

Jerome:

As you were talking, I was sick of the Audrey Lorde quote about you know that Audrey Lorde says we don't live single-issue lives, you know. And I and I really take that to heart that that as you said, like, you know, race, race there, there can be so much that so much good that can come from not talking or thinking about race as a single issue but thinking about race as it is inflected by and reflects all these other forms of of difference. So the clearing the the album and the book began as an essay, I have seen I have several kind of aims one is to one is to bring things into conversation to bring them into contact. I tell I retell, retell is Bernie Mac joke about about a young black boy who stutters and you know, and to me, that was an example of an intersection between blackness and stuttering. But then you set that next to the narrative from a formerly enslaved ancestor who describes a narrative where the angel Gabriel comes to the formerly enslaved ancestor and describes how they will the their stammering tongue will be loosed. And so these two to me examples of blackness and stuttering you know, in conversation plays next to each other. So that was one method I use another method was to was to was to engage in you know, kind of, you know, more like academic theoretical language as a way of trying to um um parse out some of the relationships between these things so for example, when thinking about blackness and music. You know, there are so many things to talk about with blackness and music, but what I, one of the things I wanted to focus on was the way that historians Sidiyah Hartman describes when Africans were being brought to the auction block to be sold into slavery the way those Africans were forced to play instruments and to sing and so at this very specific, historical, you know, knot of blackness. And music, then, you know, I talked about that very briefly. So it felt like the essay was, you know, in some ways like a mosaic of these of these just like these, these instances of these different fields are coming into contact.

Maya:

I did want to get back to track eight because there's one part of that track that really struck me, and it's when you say, “Do not edit me,” and it's, it struck me because, like, you know, as we're as I'm doing the podcast and as we're making decisions of where to edit, it's always been very important for me to keep my stutter as part of the um as part of the p-podcast, o-obviously, but at the same time like I don't want to put pressure on myself to stutter. So it is this weird thing because normally I'm I'm trying not to s-stutter but then sometimes in my podcast I'm just like, letting go like so much of that like pressure that is built up throughout t-the day.

Jerome: 

I find it so interesting what you're saying about like, releasing from the pressures of the day not to stutter. And like not wanting or not wanting to put p-pressure on yourself to stutter, I find it is that's what that's something I'm really fascinated by was stuttering how there's this elusive quality I find that it's like, sometimes when I w-want to stutter, like when I'm on stage, you know, and I want to I want to I want to I want t-to celebrate the stutter. And sometimes it doesn't appear. And so I've been trying to think about like, well, so there's, you know, there's involuntary stuttering which feels like the way you know it usually manifests is that the person who stutters doesn't have control over it. And then there's this other technique, voluntary stuttering which I found, you know, I find very, like philosophically very interesting, because it's like, if you voluntarily stutter, are you faking it, are you you know, but, but I think, you know, so there's these two terms, and then what I'm trying to do is like, think about it like, the third way um through this old word there's this old word I encountered that is it gala Tory, g r a l l a try and refers to waiting birds like Herons, egrets. I've been like well, what might a grallatorial might be like, as a way of thinking about credit think about the way that like herons though just stand and wait for a fish to come. And I've like spent so much time this year just like watching Parents do that. And I've been like, Well, I wonder if there's a way of like, thinking about stuttering that's not strictly involuntary and it's not strictly voluntary, but that it involves some kind of waiting. Yeah, it's been interesting in the last few years, like talking with people doing interviews, here and there and being very clear with them that they I don't want them to edit out my stutter, including with This American Life, you know, that I was very clear with them. That I want it to be edited out. So I'm really glad that resonated with you. Thank you. I, it's I sometimes forget about that line, you know, because it's it's kind of short, you know, like, it's a short shorts, kind of simple sentence, but I'm really glad that it's in there. You know,

Maya: 

I was very explicit to when I did when I did the interview with NPR. I was like, Yeah, you like, you need to include my my stutter. And they did and it was beautiful. And I was I was so proud of my stutter in that moment, because it was like, because other people who stutter might hear that and think, oh, wow, like, She stuttered. Like, that's, like, that's like me and if she can do it, I can do it too. I really want to ask this question, but it's, it's kind of complicated, so bear with me. When I listened to your album a second time, I understood why I thought listening to the first track the first time I was thinking in my head, oh, like I didn't really hear you stutter. And then and I, I initially thought your blocks were just part of the music and the blending and then in track two, you talk about how you never really know if it's a block or if it's like, intention, if it's an intention to, you know, it's part of that the music or is it really just like me blocking? So I'm wondering, was that your intention? With saying that and talking more about your stutter and track 2 and then leaving t-track 1 kind of like a mystery?

Cynthia: 

Yeah, my I just want to say I noticed the exact same thing.

Jerome: 

Yeah, I love this question. I no one's asked me this before. Definitely. That was intentional. Yeah. I mean, so much of what I find so beautiful about the stutter is is the mystery and all the mysteries I feel I've hold so many mysteries, and I want to try to honor a few of those of the album and one of the ones I wanted to honor was like, yeah, like not revealing it. Right? Right right up at the front and like, I wanted the listener to be in the state of unknowing. Like why like, why is this pause happening? Like, is it intentional is not intentional. Is there something wrong with the microphone, you know, like, I just I find that that state of unknowing so important. I because I think there's so much of that in life that like even when I like I approach like a tree or something and I some trees that you know, I can identify, like I'm like that's an oak tree, but some I don't know what they are. And I and I, it's like I think there's sometimes I approach a tree and I don't know what kind of tree it is. I'm like, and I have the impulse to like take out my phone and use the plant app and like, take a picture of the leaf and identify it but sometimes I'm like, like no like, let me just like and and just like be in front of the unknown of my my ignorance. And like my not knowing what like and my not being able to grasp this truth My name because because you know, because I find part of what so what I'm interested too is with like the word stutter, you know, too many people that mean so many different things.

But part of my experience is person stutters because of the glottal block is not as common in certain media. You know, I grew up watching Porky Pig, you know, who, who repeats you know, repeats the syllables a lot, but he doesn't really glottal block and the King's speech doesn't really do that, you know? Biden doesn't really do that. And so like, what it's hard, so much experience, including on the phone so often is like somebody, I feel like if on the phone, if I were if I were repeating the first syllable of a book title than they, then they would be less likely to hang up because they would hear like, and they might be like, Oh, he's stuttering right now, but because the glottal block so often sounds silent. I experienced this so often, just like as a daily fact of my life. Is that like, people don't know what's happening. And I and it's like, it's been so painful for so many years, but I gradually been able to be like that not knowing something important there.

And I there's this book that really means a lot to me called the Cloud of Unknowing. And it's it's, it's from the Middle Ages and it's, it's by a monk and it's a book of largely about prayer. But he talks it's but it talks about like how we can approach God through knowledge and we could approach God through love. That the approaching God through love is ultimately ultimately brings us closer to God and we often have to like leave knowledge of behind, and I think about that a lot like like that track one that like somebody might be in a state of like, uncertainty and even like, be uncomfortable. Because they're like, what's happening? And I find that really important, as opposed to like, open to the album, say like, Hey, I speak with a stutter. So here's what's going on and then going, you know, so then yeah, it was intentional. That didn't track to the nice then then I like reveal a bit more that then the listener gets an analogous experience to what happens in track four with the bookseller, because the bookseller also doesn't know what's happening. And what I find so interesting is that so often the person on the other end it feels like they think they like there's to me seems to be a great confidence that sometimes it feels like the thought process is like, well, I don't hear any sound. I'm going to say hello a few times. I think the most likely scenario is that the line has dropped, which is very reasonable. But it's just like not, that's just not true. It's not what's happening. And so then so it becomes a question of like, if epistemology to just like how to like, like, when do we think we know what we know? But we don't actually know. And I think the stator just like holds that so beautifully. So it was very intentional. Yeah, and I'm really glad to hear you you both have the experience because I was I was like, it's a little risky to like, you know, to like, confuse the listener but I really thought was important.

Maya:

Thank you for approaching it that way. I think it's it was very well executed. And the last question I have about the album and then we have just a few quick closing questions. But my next question about your album is around track six. This is where you also introduce milta and I just loved how she explained your stuttering as a form of ancestral wisdom. Yeah, I was just blown away and I'm just wondering like, um, like, how, if you can kind of just go more into your relationship with your mentor.

Jerome:

So So right now, she has undergone a, an initiation. And so her name currently is Yahweh muta. But at the time her name was was muta. And yeah, I met her in 2019. I think, in New York, I went I was working on a wonderful work of theater and performance called reconstruction with a company called the team and muta. YAHWAH, Miatas, longtime anti racist. Organizer. And yeah, and just like as we got to know she she would just, she would just say, say, say say things to me. About like how my stutter struck her and she and the, in her spiritual practice, she is really strong connection with with with the ancestors, and she told me about that. And so then when I wrote the abstract for the essay that this work is based on I sent the abstract to her and the rest of the company and the watch what she reads on track six was her response to reading the abstract where I was already talking about blackness studying and music together. So um, yeah, and and it's just like, it's really important for me in the album to you know, have these three phone calls, you know, the bookseller, part one, part two, and then with yellow muta, because you're muted to me. I want to include hers because it's an example of a phone call where one I don't need to disclose the stutter she already knows about and to, to where I feel totally safe. stuttering and and we're it's a conversation that is so healing, you know, and many of our conversations between she and I are so healing. So I really wanted to like have a progression of phone calls from you know, one that is you know, where I get interrupted in a way to where I don't get interrupted you know, but it's you know, I have to disclose and then three words just, it's just a bath, you know, of just like care and wisdom. So, yeah, I'm so grateful that and I and I, you know, I told her I asked her I was like, Can you record what you wrote to me for this album I'm working on and she was very happy to and that we and then I recorded that that phone call so yeah, it's I'm so so so grateful to her and, and, and, and you know, yeah, like in the, in the album in the book, I tried to, you know, present a multiplicity of viewpoints on on stuttering you know, so there's my viewpoint but there's also yellow mute this viewpoint and and there's, you know, there's Bernie Mac's viewpoint and you know, and you know, try to present a bit of a kaleidoscope.

Maya: 

That's beautiful. And so as we wrap up, I did want to ask and leave our listeners who are curious what you're working on next, and what can we expect from you? Yeah, so if you can talk about like, what's next for you? And also, are you planning to do any like live performances at all? I don't know. That might. I was just that was a question that kind of came to me.

Jerome: 

Yeah, I'm definitely doing live performances. A bit doing performing in Philadelphia, march 15. Savannah, Georgia February 10. The Savannah one will be focused on the clearing. I'll be performing in Europe in April and May various places. New York City I think in February a bit, but I'm looking I'm looking to like, you know, tour more with the clearing. So you know if any of your listeners are interested in hosting an event or something like that I'm really interested in I love engaging with people with the work and then what I'm working on. Yeah, so I'm working on the essay as I mentioned earlier, where I'm trying to think about stuttering by thinking about Herons, and waiting birds in general. That's, that'll be for a anthology of essays on our collection of essays about bodies and and and performance. And then I'm working on a book a next book where I'm book series of performances, music, it's all a very hybrid project like the clearing that is focused on a on archives of advertisements from newspapers in the 18th and 19th centuries, that are advertisements for enslaved people who have run away from those who believe that they're their masters and it's a work of poetry. In following in the tradition of the poet Eleanor Bessie Philip, her book Zong, where she creates a book of poetry by rearranging and creating anagrams from the words of a legal case about an 18th century massacre of Africans on a ship. And so in this project, I'm creating poems and songs by rearranging words in the in the advertisements, and there's a subset of these advertisements for enslaved ancestors who who stutter so it's further you know, a way of further thinking about black history and stuttering together and for example, you know, there's a line from one of the pieces that is it goes a stutter, is an occasion to be present. complex thought and the line is formed entirely from words or fragments of words from the advertisement the word complex from from from the word, a complexion, because the advertisement describes the complexion of the enslaved ancestor, in a way. Occasion comes from a sentence that I've, I believe it's, it's talking about a scar on the ancestor that was occasioned by a patient by a lash I believe, and it's all the words are taken from the ad and so then new language arises, these these these images arise and I have not ever arrived that had I not been like restricting myself to these these documents and the documents seem to be they are documents of you know, violence, but also documents of you know, of escape and, and resistance.

Maya:

Wow, sounds like you have quite a busy year ahead and we are very much looking forward to following you along and following your work. We will be sure to include the shows that Jerome mentioned in our show notes, so be sure to check that out. And if you haven't done so, we highly, highly recommend listening to Jerome's new album clearing. Thank you so much, Jerome for being with us. It was such a rich conversation and I am going to be thinking about all the things we talked about for a long time. And that's it for proud stutter. Thank you all and see you next time. And that's it for this episode. I'm Maya. And I'm Cynthia, and you've been listening to proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced by me my tube

Maya: 

And that's it for this episode. I'm Maya. And

Cynthia: 

I'm Cynthia,

Maya: 

and you've been listening to proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced by me, Maya Chupkov

Cynthia: 

and edited by me, Cynthia our music was composed by Augustine, and our artwork by Mara zekiel. And know what

Maya: 

you've called. If you have an idea or want to be part of future episodes. Find us on Twitter at proud stutter. You can also find us at www dot proud stutter.com

Cynthia: 

drop us a note or share a voice memo. What's your stuttering story? What topics would you like us to cover? And what are you curious about?

Maya: 

And if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast.

Cynthia: 

More importantly, tell your friends to listen to

Maya: 

until we meet again. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you