Stuttering in the Newsroom with Pro Publica’s Mariam Elba

Transcript

 Maya:

I'm Maya Chupkov. And I'm a woman who stutters.

Cynthia:

I'm Cynthia, Maya’s longtime friend, and I know nothing about stuttering.

Maya:

And this is Proud Stutter, a podcast about changing the conversation about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity and an effort to change how we talk about it one conversation at a time.

Cynthia:

Welcome back to Proud Stutter. And today our guest is Mariam Elba. She's a research reporter at ProPublica where she conducts research for local investigations, which is awesome and we're going to be talking to her today about what it's like to have a stutter as a reporter and also as an adjunct professor, welcome, Marian.

Maya:

Yeah, we're so excited to speak with you. And I'm p-particularly interested in your teaching because I can imagine that can be a little anxiety-inducing at least I think so with with having a stutter. So I, I'd love if you can give us just like a brief summary and introduce yourself.

 Mariam:

My name is MMMMMariam I'm from it feels good to be on a podcast where I don't have to worry how long it might take to say my name as is it's very often the thing that I uh um uh takes a long time for me to say, I’m a journalist, I'm a Research reporter at ProPublica. As of last spring, as well. I started teaching at the Craig Newmark journalism school at the City University of NNNew York. Teaching the um uh research methods class for uh journalism students um which I found quite rewarding and quite fun.

Maya:

In addition to being a journalist and being an adjunct, P-P-Professor, what do you like to do for fun?

 Mariam:

I love um uh music I'm uh, I'm a I'm a big l-l-l-listener of music, my tastes kind of spans from you know, from uh progressive MMetal to Kpop. I'm actually in Los Angeles now for the to to attend the um uh BTS concert.

 Cynthia:

I think I know the answer. To this, but do you stutter when you sing?

 Mariam:

You know, it's an interesting question, because I'm trying to think about when was the last time I sang. But um I mean, I guess the next time I'll sing this probably at this concert. But interestingly, no, I don't really stutter when I when I sing. Um and I remember reading something about how it like involves different brain paths from speaking so like, you don't stutter when you sing, but I also feel like there's a um you know, like, of course, there's like a scientific like, like a neurological component to that.

 Cynthia:

That's awesome. I had a hunch that you wouldn't stutter when you sang. I wanted to ask you about how you got into journalism and if your stutter had any effect on your career choice?

 Mariam:

I kind of fell into journalism by accident. Um when I got out of college, I applied to grad school to study um uh Middle Eastern studies. I was really interested in like history and anthropology. And and the program that I got into was actually a dual program for Middle Eastern Studies and um j-journalism and after um uh graduating, I interned at Democracy Now uh for a bit as a social media intern. And it was a really interesting time good because that was when I like like the internship had lasted through um uh uh the 2016 uh el-election campaign and Trump's um uh eventual of v- um uh v-victory um so it was really interesting time. And it was really interesting to see how the producers of the show would kind of like frame the news, what kind of um uh voices they would have on and how they were different from how like other broadcast outlets were, and then afterward, I uh started a fact-checking internship at The NNNNation. I remember that first week where like, they were kind of training us for it. And like, there was a lot of emphasis on like, oh, like, if you can't find the answer to this t-t-to this, you like have to, you know, call the source to confirm, for example, how they spell their name. I remember being really intimidated.

The interesting thing about fact-checking is that it's kind of your like, reporting backwards, you're like peeling the layers of a story to to see how it was made. Um and, you know, if there are any errors to correct, you're just kind of like cleaning up the loose ends in a way. I really enjoyed it. So like all this to say. I like did not see myself becoming a journalist when one when I was in college, and not even when I was in grad school, but kind of like various twists of fate have like, helped me discover how much I like really enjoy journalism that I and unlike specifically the research aspect of it. It's it's a role that isn't in a lot of newsrooms. But it's, I think, a very uh essential role and that you kind of are, you know, filling in the holes that maybe the reporter might not be able to do by themselves.

Cynthia: 

So it sounds like a lot of the work that you do is kind of behind the scenes. How did you take that leap into teaching at a college level, and kind of going from doing everything behind the scenes to being in front of a room full of people?

 Mariam:

You know, it's interesting, like teaching was another thing that I like just n-never saw myself d-doing because, like, just too many things to like, navigate and what helped me break out of that was one of my mentors in the news research community who had actually taught me a lot of what I know now had recommended me to be an adjunct to the um uh librarian at Newmark who I who, who I also knew a bit of p-previously. I remember getting the email from um her kind of all of a sudden. Like last actually, it was nearly a yyyear ago now. asked me if I just want to if I like wanted to be an adjunct for the coming semester.

I was kind of surprised that I had gotten that email because yeah, like again, like I just never like saw myself as a as a teacher, but like, after thinking about it, I kind of just wanted to like, give it a try and try to like break out of that, like, notion that like, oh, because I have a speech impediment, that means that I won't be a good teacher and yeah, I finished my second semester of teaching just a few weeks ago.

Maya:

Something that I'm I'm curious about because as as I've been doing this podcast, I've I've been forced to pay more and more attention. To my own stutter. And I only just started meeting other people who stutter really recently. And I find it really interesting that we all kind of have our own way of stuttering, right? Like there's so many different forms and I'm j-just c-curious, like, do you do you interact with other stutters a lot and how w-would you d-describe your stuttering c-compared to others?

 Mariam:

You know, it's funny I met one of my uh good friends is a person who um uh stutters, unlike, you know, we've like we both had kind of like, like, found out by accident. And one of my colleagues that like, and like one of my friends and colleagues at ProPublica, is also a person who stuttered. I remember actually, the first time I met a person who stutters, I was quite young. And my mom was kind of looking for like effective um uh speech therapy, which is something I know that you're familiar with um uh M-MMMaya, as you were growing up, but we eventually uh found um uh therapists that would kind of like embrace like, confidence-building is like the primary form of therapy and like, you know, like, maybe include tips to help get through like really intense bloooocks, but like with confidence building I was like the primary of factor.

I met people who stutter through those therapists actually, I went to a couple of the friends who stutter conventions when I was in middle school and that end like kind of being in like a massive other people who stutter like really kind of like, helped me like, reset my brain to kind of just like you know, accept that this is the way that that I speak.

One thing that I wanted to mention with regards to like teaching like the main thing that helped me was the first semester that I started teaching, it was all still on Zoom and like I don't know about you have Maya but like, I always tend to, like, get really like. Like, especially in like a big zoom group. If I'm expected to like speak or say something. There's always like, like, a very tiny like, Oh, no. Moments like in my head, like, like, you know, like like, you know, that like some pretty like, big blocks might be coming your way but someone had given me the idea of like, you know, giving the um uh students a brief survey, and with each question, I would show the answer or like, I would show my my own answer to those questions. And I had a question that was like, Is there anything that I should know whether it's some big life event or any special learning needs or anything in general that I should know? And for me, I put down that I speak with a chronic stutter, which means that it might take me a bit more time to speak than average and yeah, I just like, like, before even the students met me on Zoom, they kind of all knew that I had a stutter. And I think it worked really well because I don't know like you like it's, it felt like we like on both sides, we were able to kind of empathize um with what like we were able to like empathize with um uheach other.

Maya:

Yeah. And I think it that's really helped me like disclosing. First it's really helped me just feel m-more okay. B-Because I know that that I won't be expecting them to r-react with that likes surprised like, I don't know w-what's going on. But yeah, that's always anxiety-i-inducing, but I think having some sort of survey, I think that's a good kind of tool t-to use for, for people, especially if it's over zoom and you're not really able to connect in person one on one.

 Cynthia:

It sounds like a really tough situation. I had a student that I worked with, who didn't have a stutter, but he there was something going on and so he was in our adult class and he was practicing interviewing. And the interviewers would ask him a question, and he would just stay silent for about 20 seconds before kind of responding with like a one or two-word answer. And so I started working more closely with him. One on one, and I asked him, What is going on? Why, why does it take you so long to speak? And he said, it just does. And so I told him, maybe that's something you can disclose at the beginning of an interview, but at the same time, it's like, both situations are really stressful, you know, kind of writing it out and just just kind of seeing how it goes. But also putting it out there and being like, hey, you might have to be more patient with me, that's also stressful.

Maya:

So I'm curious in your reporting, and in your teaching, is there a recent memory that comes to mind or interaction that had to do with your stutter?

Mariam:

Just last week I was working from the office and there's a like I'm still sort of somewhat new at Pro Publica and like since a lot of people are still like, working from home like most of the time, I haven't met a lot of my colleagues yet or I haven't spoken to them a lot. Um But like I was in the office, and I had you know, uh bumped into one of my um uh into one of my colleagues and like, we were just like, I think did like just like, you know, office chatter, like, w-what are you doing for Thanksgiving and all of that and then he kind of stopped and asked like, asking if, um like, he can ask, like, a somewhat sensitive question. And I was like, Yeah, sure. I'm like, I kind of knew that this was like about the stutter. Like you can kind of tell and like, I didn't even like realize that I had, like stuttered like in front of him until he asked that question. But I had a brief um uh, like, block when I was in the middle of speaking uh to him. He was asking me like, like, what's the right thing to do if if it takes you a long time to say you something like, should I just wait? And I was like, yeah, like, that was absolutely like the right thing to do and like thank you for Hosking.

 Cynthia:

That is so sweet.

 Mariam:

Yeah, like it's it's really nice when you get like You get like questions like that like I know people feel awkward asking them but it's always good to kind of be like acknowledged and that way.

And just kind of like put it like out there at the same time like I'm like like also thinking and like these might not even have to do with like, having the stutter or not like because in journalism you might need to make like, difficult calls with sources that are not exactly like friendly. Um like whether or not you have a stutter, they might not go all that well. I remember there was a story I was fact checking at the intercept and uh it was a story about uh the really inhumane like summer heat in um uh prisons, and there was a particular prison part of the assignment was to call the prison and just to make sure that they have not in fact installed any new like ventilation or like air conditioning. And I remember and it's interesting like the way that I deal with like, both like difficult phone calls and any like, phone calls, like as a researcher or as a reporter that I try to have like Like I kind of have like this like introductory script in front of me. So that it's like, I'm less likely to freeze and like forget what I need to say if I do in fact block. But anyway, that was a brief aside but yeah, I remember that I could call this person asking them just this one question and they had just like hung up on me but like, that could also have happened if they like. If like, if like I don't stutter, like that's a question that they probably don't want to be getting and have probably been getting it from maybe more than one reporter.

Maya: 

That reminds me of when I was working in the PR industry. It was my first job out of college and my my role at that PR firm was to pitch journalists. That was literally my only job was to pitch journalists, to land stories for our clients who were paying a lot of m-money for us to get them in. Publications. So I would call people like Mariam and pitch them stories. And when I first started doing this, my manager, she wanted to listen and make sure I was I was pitching it right and all that stuff. And that was the worst because of course I stuttered. And she's like, she was like, oh, did you not p-prepare? And even though like when I would pitch, I would be successful, like I'd still be able to like get through my script though. Eventually, I started showing that I could do it and land stories because I was a very good people person. But my manager’s first impression of me is I don't know if we hired the right p-person. She, she, you know, and it was just such. It was really tough to get through it.

 Cynthia:

That sounds like a movie about like a toxic work environment. Sounds awful.

 Mariam:

I think what helped me a lot when the work got really stressful like I think in like journalism, and like in any kind of you know, workplace or industry is really making sure that you have like, a good support. Network in your workplace.

Cynthia: 

Yeah, when you were deciding um because I know you mentioned you never saw yourself necessarily teaching, when you were making that decision, did you have people who were uplifting you saying yes, you should totally do it. Did you have people who were tearing you down saying no, this will cause you a lot of stress? What was that whole experience like?

 Mariam:

I had spoken to a lot of my colleagues and friends they had all like encouraged me to just kind of go for it. The stutter is just something that you can address. Like it's interesting it's something that that that like, I think about a lot but they didn't think about it like that much like as like a way as like a thing that would like affect my performance, for that will affect or that would like that would potentially affect my performance as a teacher and they just are like, you know, you seem to like, like, you know, teaching people how to do certain stuff. You should just go for it in teaching a class and see how it is.

Journalism like, generally like even if you're you know, interval that isn't that like doesn't require you to say, do a lot of public-facing like speaking or like phone calling. It's really like, like, kind of like how Maya was saying about the PR industry. It's a really a difficult industry to navigate even as like a nonstutter like even if you don't need to, like speak, maybe you know you like wanting to like speak up about things like burnout or like working conditions or like ensuring that you know, both the newsroom makeup and like the coverage embraces, like, diversity, a lot of different things like that.

Maya:

And my current work p-place it's the first environment where I've ever had you know, I disclose to my co-workers right off the bat and it's been such a positive experience. My boss is so accepting and patient with my stutter. And so yeah, I guess our last question for you is, what would you say to an aspiring journalist or someone who kind of wants to get into an industry where you have to communicate a lot? Like what would you say to that person who has a stutter?

Mariam: 

I would say don't be afraid to kind of go after what you feel really passionate about. Like if there are stories that you like, that you're seeing and that you want to write about and report on that you're not seeing elsewhere. You should be the person to do that reporting. And that like, you know, your stutter doesn't like make you any less qualified to be someone speaking in like a public facing. Setting.

Maya:

Well, this was such a lovely conversation, and we thank you so much for being with us, especially on such short notice, and I'm super jealous, you're going to that concert. I hope you have so much fun.

And that's it for this episode. I'm Maya. And

Cynthia: 

I'm Cynthia,

Maya: 

and you've been listening to proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced by me, Maya Chupkov

Cynthia: 

and edited by me, Cynthia our music was composed by Augustine, and our artwork by Mara zekiel. And know what

Maya: 

you've called. If you have an idea or want to be part of future episodes. Find us on Twitter at proud stutter. You can also find us at www dot proud stutter.com

Cynthia: 

drop us a note or share a voice memo. What's your stuttering story? What topics would you like us to cover? And what are you curious about?

Maya: 

And if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast.

Cynthia: 

More importantly, tell your friends to listen to

Maya: 

until we meet again. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you