Bus Driving With A Stutter Is Not What You Think

Transcript

Maya Chupkov:  

Hi I'm Maya Chupkov, and I'm a woman who stutters Welcome to proud stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it. one conversation at a time

I just got to the bus stop here at Laguna and Macalester just a few blocks away from the apartment. I'm going to hit on the bus. Hello, good. How are you? It's so good to meet you.

Dustin Wells:

I know so good to meet you.

Maya Chupkov:

This is Dustin wells. As you can probably hear he is a bus driver in San Francisco where we both live. We met along his bus route, which takes you all the way to the ocean.

Dustin

So I'm gonna try to go all the way to the end though.

Maya:

Okay, yeah, I'm actually meeting my dog at the beach. So the dog Yeah. Dustin is a person who stutters and lives with his family and two dogs in Bayview Hunters Point, a neighborhood on the eastern side of the city.

Dustin

Alamo Square This is tough for Alamo Square.

Maya:

When I asked him about his stutter, this is one of the first things he told me.

Dustin:

I psychologically have never identify with being a daughter, even though it's like one of the most defining things of out me. And it shaped me shape shaped my whole life. And I never really owned or to being a stutter, because I naively believe that every day when I wake up, I'm not going to

any more, but it hasn't happened. So the odds of it happening are slim limb,

Maya:

he also mentioned something that I think we all as stutters can relate to

Dustin:

I sinful lesbi to your podcast. I'm neither stuttering more, or I'm just more aware of it. But I definitely notice it a lot now. And for the very first time in my life. I'm not trying to hide it. And I'm not trying to not daughter, and I like it a lot more than I had been living for the last 52 years where I would avoid like, certain social situations. Whoa, I have patients like

Like I have our time ordering in restaurants and like talking on the phone and you know, talking to somebody I don't know. I used to have a hard time talking when I was so over. So before us socially vent, I would get like your duck and that would help my daughter lesson or I thought it did likely not.

Maya:

In addition to stuttering. One of the things I learned a ton about is what it's like to be a bus driver in San Francisco. bus driving can be an extremely taxing job, emotionally stressful and physically draining.

Dustin:

It's I don't want to say It's life and death every second. But it's life or death every second. Like if I hit somebody with that thing, that thing is gigantic. It's like 60 feet long. 21 tons. When it's empty. I'm going down the street at 30 miles an hour. You know, people are like jumping out all the time kids and elderly folks and I drove in Chinatown for years where they would jump in for 100 of you to stop you and stuff. It was outrageous. You will I believe how many times a day how many times a day. And it doesn't just happen to me. But people who ride the bus, see that the bus is about total leave the stop. And they'd like to get on it. So they're not at the stop, and they jump in front of you to stop you. Our heart rate our heart beats go up. People have heart attacks in the seat at that job all the time. And that's why,

Maya:

despite these factors, dusty finds a way to ensure that he stays healthy on the job. He bikes to and from work. And every morning he meditates, dusty loves his job and the connection he feels to San Francisco while driving through all of its neighborhoods. He also is able to bond with the other bus operators in very interesting ways.

Dustin:

I feel like part of the whole San Francisco mush. Like I feel like I helped San Francisco right run. Like when I started this job, I started with a lot of folks that couldn't speak English, hardly at all. So for like a year on the job, like they didn't say anything at all. And a lot of my friends now are operators that are Chinese, and their Chinese are riots. And even though they were here, since you were like 12 and 13 years old and stuff, they don't feel comfortable with their Chinese accent, right. So they try not to talk which is funny thing I feel

Maya:

and he wasn't going to let me get off the bus without using the intercom and saying one of the stops over the mic transferred to the 29 Bayview and a Baker Beach

Dr. I had a great ride with Dustin on his route. Stay tuned to hear more from Dustin wells. Joining me for this special sit down interview with Dustin is Kristen Evans, owner of my favorite independent bookstore in San Francisco. The booksmith Dusty tells us some funny psychic stories and we get real about some of the most emotional parts of having a stutter. It's all coming up next. Proud stutter is 100% listener funded and I couldn't do the show without the support of all of our listeners. Shout out to our newest monthly donor Wayne and the Brunson if you want to hear your name on an episode of proud setter, all you have to do is donate by going to proud center.com and making a monthly contribution. Welcome back. I'm here again with Dustin wells. This time we are not on the bus. Joining us is Kristin Evans, our rotating co host for today. Kristin is a fellow San Franciscan, she lives in the upper Haight not too far from booksmith. Welcome Dustin and Kristen to proud stutter.

Christin:

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Dustin:

Hello.

Maya:

So Dustin, let's kick it off with you. Can you tell us more about you and your stutter?

Dustin:

Oh, I ordered since I began to talk, which I guess is about two and a half or so. I had a fall around that age and I had a traumatic brain injury and the origin story My family told of my speech was always tied to that to the fall. But I learned later on in life that my grandfather mattered and he solved it by not talking. He drank beer in the coal shed in the dark, pretty much all day and not all the time. But anytime there was something social going on, he'd hide. And it turns out I I have a 15 year old daughter and she has us daughter also. So if I were to pick an origin story now, I would probably go with its genetic.

Maya:

Yeah, it seems like that's the case, definitely. In your case, and I know that there has been studies showing that genetics is tied. I never knew my grandpa had a stutter until I started the podcast. And my mom said that me and my grandpa used to actually talk about stuttering. But I don't remember that at all. So maybe it's just a suppressed memory or something. I don't know. But I think it's interesting that we both have had grandfathers that stuttered as well.

Dustin:

Well, you know, what's really interesting about the memory thing is that in my life, to deterring has been so horrible. Every time I tried to talk that I don't have a lot of like, really distinct memories of stuttering. Like, I know that after I would talk, like I would feel this horrible shame. And it was so horrible that I immediately

Dustin:

it out. I think. So. When I look back over my life, I can only really call stuttering maybe six times, you know, but I stutter every time I talk. So it's

that we have a selective memory around it.

Christin:

Is there a consistent thread about what unites those memories? Oh,

Dustin:

yeah, like one time in school, I think it was in eighth grade, I had to stand up and say, the pass of blood takes through the Word. And you had to do it within like, min min, min. ban it. And I stood up, and I could not say it at all. And you know, and then when I was a senior in college, I was taking a Shakespeare SIM in our, and I knew the answer, and I was the only one that knew the answer. And I was a straight A English major. And I was just so excited to be like, Oh, I know this answer. And I raised my hand, and I was gonna talk and I just couldn't say a thing, like, not a single thing. And the memories all seem to go along those lines where I had to say something. And I was excited to say something, and then I was not able to say it at all. So that's it. I think

Christin:

I still have anxiety dreams about school.

Dustin:

Don't say, Oh,

Christin:

I was gonna say I think a lot of us do.

Dustin:

Oh, yeah, no, like, I think it's, it's funny that I'm older now. Like, I don't think stuttering is, it's unique. It's a unique form of like, the daily challenge or daily horror, but I know folks that have like social anxiety czar hiding, and they're as old as I am. And like they have to go to school or they have to go to suffer therapy. And they're trying to learn how to not feel the same things. I feel like just saying hi, and trying to talk to folks that they don't know, and trying to be so.

Sure. And also along the same lines, like I know. People that don't like to talk because they don't like their accent or they don't. They feel like they're not part of the society because of their

Dustin:

I Danity or something like that. So you know the shyness thing and social thing I don't think is, you know, eight to people that's does.

Maya:

I agree with that. Yeah. And when one of the early things, Dustin, that you and I talked about was your recent visit or I think it was recent with a psychic. Can you tell us about that story?

Dustin:

Oh, yeah, I would love these stories. These are one of my favorites to dos stories though. My mom took me to a hypnotherapist when I was a child and the way my parents dealt with my daughter was to like, shame me and just yell at me. They would say, stop, start over. Or they would say this thing we all hate to hear. Think about what you're going to say. And then say it. Okay, that's pretty much what everybody does. But okay. But my mom and dad's main goal was that my daughter was not attached to anything that they that they had done, you know what I mean? So they were just looking for like abs, so to ocean. So when I was in sixth grade, my mom took me to a hypnotherapy test. And the hypnotherapist put me under, and we were studying the civil war in school. And I knew a lot of facts about it then. And like, I was like, Oh, I was a Civil War soldier for the Union. Go Blue, right. And I had died. And I named the battlefield where I died because we have learned about it in school and everything. I think my mom was in

Dustin:

at the time, and I think I like really hands up too. I was like, crying and I was having my stuff seen, you know, like, Oh, I'm shot. And so when we came out of that hypnotherapy sash, and my mom was happy because she was like, Haha, you stutter, not because I let you fall as on coddler, which he totally did. I just horrible accident when she should have had her eyes on me. But that's not why you have a hard time talking. You have a hard time talking. Because you died in the Civil

Dustin:

war. And I was like, okay, and we just accepted that for like, years, right? And then when I tried to say, as an adult, I was like, Hey, Mom and Dad, you know what, in sixth grade, we were studying about the war in school, and I had all these facts, and I just totally made that all up. And they were like, No, you died in the Civil War. But it is oh my god. And then I have a story after that. When I came to psychic her when I came to San Francisco, somebody took me to psychic her two rising risings which is a psychic school in the mat. Mash and here, and I was having a psychic reading done and you're allowed to ask three things. And I think it was about 30 to 33 at the time, and I was trying speech therapy again, and it was not going well at all. And I was like, hey, psychics, what's going on with my watering and the psychics read my aura and stuff. And they told me one of the A psychic said that I was the judge, a judge and the Salem trials. And I stuttered now, because I felt so horribly for sentencing innocent watches to die. And she was like, wow. And like I'm like, well, a lot. You know what, though? I was like, you know, I was just like, wow, that's the most outrageous thing I've ever heard. But you know what, you know. Anyway, that being said, I'm still a psychic fan, though. You know what I mean? I like all that.

Christin:

It's a way for self reflection. Right.

Dustin:

it is, so I sell free for people liked it, that I more than likely was not the judge at the Salem witch trials. No harm done.

Maya:

I am so excited to be airing this episode during SF transit month, which happens every September. Proud stutter is proud to be putting on an in person event at booksmith called stuttering stories across San Francisco, featuring none other than Dustin wells, is on September 27. At 7pm More details at proud center.com/events.

So Dustin, I'm wondering like, is there a moment you can describe or an experience that shaped your stuttering journey? Yes.

Dustin:

I started to be really happy and really comfortable with my daughter, and mum, my mum, myself, when I started to get sober from a team, and I was a jerk, right thinking too much. And I decided to stop that. And I started going to like AAA, but when I was going to like a, it was really an eye opener for me, because the people there weren't talking about being draw rocks, like I thought like I thought they'd be like, Oh, I drink this. And I did this and that was done blah, blah, blah. But they were talking about just feeling on. Comfortable. That was the main thing. So they were talking about being on comfortable with themselves. And they were talking about being on comfortable and social things. And they were just talking about not being not having a lot of like selfless debts did Diem, so they use alcohol to help themselves, just how they

Dustin:

about themselves. And I was doing that with alcohol for years. Like, if I drank, I found out that my stutter was lesson or I thought it did. And then I'd be able to hide it. And I could do that. And they were talking about the same thing to like they were talking about they would feel uneasy, you know, in a social situation or like at their job or just pretty much anywhere. They would use something to help themselves have self esteem or change the way that they felt. And so when I started to get sober I started to learn how to just accept feeling on comfortable at times, and I felt I'm going on

comfortable every time I tried to talk and when I just started to accept that I started to feel less and less on confortable at all times. And so five years down the road after that, I'm just really comfortable at all times, now there's very, it's very rare that I feel social anxiety, or I feel like I am not able to talk. And I still to daughter all the time, so that hasn't changed at all. But at age 47, until right now, I've just become more and more.

Dustin:

society sad thing of who I am, and part of who I am, is that every time I talk, I did the does that did the dah, dah, water. And yet at the same time, I have no anxiety of ba ba, ba, ba ba. Ba health that now.

Maya:

That's amazing. No that, that that's amazing. I'm just trying to like, digest everything you did, you just said because it's so powerful.

Dustin:

I just want to say this because I know you're podcast is less than two by people. That's to daughter. And I would just like to say to them, like, when you stutter, sometimes we get low self as Diem. So then we do things to ease that low self esteem. And we we can get into a lot of like things where we're just eating too much or we become we become love addicts, or like sex addicts. Or we try to get our self esteem from being really awesome at our jobs or being really smart, or like showing off in some

Dustin:

And I'd like to say to them, that you don't have to stop that. But just be aware that you might be over compensating in some area of your life to make up for the the low self esteem or the shame, or the and I will see that you feel when you were when you talk. And I'd also like you know, hate to say that you don't have to stop it. I mean, so don't be in stopping awesome at like tennis or riding a skateboard or, you know, something like that, or like eating sugar, you know, but just be aware that that might be happening. And I'd argue that once you are a whoa aware of that things begin to change in your life and you become happier and more comfortable. Oh,

Maya:

yeah, I can definitely. I mean, I think every human can kind of connect with that. And as someone who stutters like I overcompensate by always trying to be like perfect, and like perfectionism is definitely one way I do that. And so And Kristen as someone that doesn't stutter, like, it seems like that is just such a relatable thing across like anyone even even people who don't stutter.

Christin:

Absolutely. I was just gonna say the same thing. I feel like you know, recognizing our relationship to food or alcohol or all those things, is is good to be aware of. And then to Dustin's point, you can then start to wreck denies when you're feeling that anxiety and be conscious of it and then make, you know, changes whether that's, you know, conscious choices to reduce or eliminate those things.

Dustin:

Yeah, you know what? Yeah, what's really funny though, is I still use food to like, self serve food, you know, and I don't feel bad about that though. Like, I'm gonna eat that doughnut, and I'm not gonna feel shame. I know, it's not going to change things a whole lot. But that donut is so good. So it's like, still there, you know, but I'm just aware of it now. Like, you know, I have a hard day at my job. And I'm like, Ah, I need some salted fatty food now. You know,

Christin:

the, the way you were describing it, I was thinking it could be like a shame cycle, right? Like, where you're eating, and then you feel shame, shame about that. Like, just going getting like you do something else to compensate for feeling bad about that you over over ate, you know, whatever. And so like, like, I think, like, what you're saying is, is that like, once you recognize that that's the thing. You also can kind of say, like, Okay, I don't need to feel so bad that I did that. Because I recognize I did it. And I made a choice to self soothe and that way, right?

Dustin:

Yeah, like I have less and less shame every day. Today, shame about how I talk. Shame about how I look, I'm kind of chubby. I'm also older. When I look in the mayor, I'm like, oh my god, who's that old guy there. And also, like, I just accept the fact now that I'm like a man. Mediocre Father, I'm a crappy husband. You know, I just accept these things. And I'm just happier. I'm not really fantastic at my job, you know? So I'm not really good.

Maya:

It's agree with that.

Dustin:

at anything, and the realization of this is that I'm the happiest man alive, because I just accept it now. You know, and it's just, it's odd to be mediocre. And, oh, I've lost that need to swell. That's it. I think at age 52. I've lost the IE to over compensate. And it's just made me feel happy.

Maya:

Yeah, I think that's very that's very powerful. And, like, just seeing you in your element. On the bus. I just felt that lightness to you. And it was just, it made me look at things differently. Because it's like you can do something as simple as riding a bus every day. But then you have this like shift in perspective. And now I'm like never gonna ride the bus the same way. Something I wanted to share with you really quickly before we get back into the episode. Proud stutter is partnering with face Tirana, me on a campaign called stutter Tober. Every Tuesday and Thursday in October, we will be lifting up a story from a person who stutters from rappers to bus drivers like our very own Dustin wells. You can also sign up to access exclusive pre released proud stutter bonus episodes. Also, we'll be giving away raffle prizes including stuttering theme posters, artwork and more in honor of Stuttering Awareness Month. More details on all of this in our show notes and on proud stuttered.com. Let's join together to spread awareness around stuttering during the month of October. Looking forward to you joining now let's get back to the episode. So Dustin, I want to switch gears just a little bit because there's something that I've been thinking about. And that's the different ways different disabilities intersect with stuttering. Like for example, we have a listener who has Asperger's and has a stutter. or my cousin has Asperger's but does not he but he doesn't really have a stutter. So they don't always go hand in hand. But there are a lot of intersections. I'm seeing. And for me personally, I do identify with the neurodiversity community, because what I want to say, doesn't always come out the same exact way. Or it doesn't always go to plan. And and I think it's just the way my brain works, and that there's a miscommunication between my speech and my brain. And so yeah, I was just wondering it destiny, if you have thought about the same thing?

Dustin:

Well, first of all, when somebody else has a speech, to desk for faux fluency, I find it really on comfortable for May. I don't know why that is. I just don't, it makes me feel really easy. And I don't know a lot of folks that have speech and para mimimum met because some states have pretty good speech therapy. Other states do not. But what happens in my life a lot is a lot of people who don't speak English very well. I seem to talk to them a lot. And a lot of guys at my job are just learning English, because they're from China or Vietnam, or from Iraq or Yemen or singing to the band. And when you drive a bus, you don't have to socialize. But it just makes the job easier, though. And when I find these guys, I'll be like, oh, man, that room was so hard. This was going on or that's going on. And once they find out that I have a hard time talking, sometimes they just feel really comfortable with their foreign accents. And so we kind of seek each other out, I think, and C's. People were really shy, and they kept them styles and stuff. But now when they see me, they like rush over. And they want to tell me about the horrible things that are going on, on on their little lines. And I'm just like, yeah, man, I hear you and, and they're just learning English sometimes. Or they just have a really deep specific accent. So it's hard and and I'm just like, man, you can take all the time you like to tell me how horrible it is out there. And we can tell students stories all day long, like, equals smoking track on the bus, people writing graffiti on the bus as you're going down this street like you get done. And there's this giant tag that's on the side of you. And you're like I was driving the whole time. How did that happen? You know, just story after story.

Maya Chupkov

I do want to if there's any last minute thoughts, and then we can wrap it up.

Christin

I was just going to say thank you for sharing your stories today. I loved hearing Deston stories about psychics. And now I'm also having greater appreciation for Muni drivers too. So thank you.

Dustin:

rave fi us that just did DAF does lol love that. And I want to say thank you to Maya because this podcast has changed my life and that I am now more accepting of my daughter now and and at the age of 52, I am no longer trying to hide it or trying to diss eyes it. And it's just made me more happy and much more at ease. I just want to say one last thing. And I thought about this and I'd be mad at myself, if I don't say this on your pod

cast, you have so many great examples of people who are successful, successful, like they work at Facebook, or they're great mum Yousician or they're renowned comedians. I love that I really do. But I don't want the people whose daughter to feel left out, like, you know what I mean? Like, you don't have to be super successful. And be like, I'm super successful. And I did the does, did the daughter, you can be like me and not be successful. And stuttered, too, and it's still okay, like, I don't want to call us losers, but you know, like, you know, there's there's Rorem out there for like folks that don't have like these amazing, fantastic jobs, like, you know, you can have a job as a cashier, you know, AND, OR, and you're good, you're fine.

Christin:

I was gonna say, I find that people that work, like everyday jobs often succeed much more in their their personal lives, than people that have overachieving jobs. Because, you know, in the end, when you look back and your 60s and your 70s, and say, like, what was really important, I think a lot of people express regrets about, you know, not making time for family and those personal relationships. And so it's a different kind of success. I think that wraps

Maya:

it up. Thank you so much, both of you again. It's been so fun, and we'll see all of our listeners in our next episode of proud Stetter. And that's it for this episode of proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by a gusto, Denise, and our artwork by Mara zekiel and Noah Chupkov. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at www dot proud stutter.com. And if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you're listening to this podcast. Want to leave us a voicemail? Check out our show notes for that the number to call in more importantly, tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you