Speech Therapy's Evolution Through The Eyes of a Stutterer

Transcript

Maya Chupkov:

Happy almost stuttering Awareness Week. It's been a blast celebrating. We've been busy passing resolutions in San Francisco and California and rallying at the Capitol in California.

Check out Proud stutter dot com for everything you need to know about Proud Stutter and how to get involved in Stuttering Awareness Week. Another thing I am celebrating is winning a 35,000 grant for Proud Stutter to produce an audio documentary on Californians who stutter. If you are from California, live in California and want to be involved in this project, please email me at info at proud stutter dot com. Today's episode is part two of my conversation with Benedict Sheehan, a person who stutters and his wife, Talia Sheehan. We talk about the different types of speech therapy.

Benedict has tried over the years. I don't think I've ever met someone who stutters that has been through the many iterations of speech therapy he's had. But let me know if I'm wrong. I would love to hear from you. We also talk about his A DH D diagnosis and how that has impacted his relationship with his stutter. All right. Let's get to the interview. Part two.

I'm Maya Chupkov and I'm a woman who stutters. Welcome to Proud Stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it. One conversation at a time.

So Benedict, we spoke earlier in our conversation about speech therapy and I was wondering if you can just talk about specifically your journey with the different types of speech therapy. You've over the years.

Benedict Sheehan:

Yeah, I'd be glad to. Um I think the earliest experience that I can recall of speech therapy was what was um it was totally no help at all. It was just basically trying to get me to not to, not to not stutter in a, in a, in a clinical context text.

I don't remember any of the details about what we did. I just, I just recall that, that I could easily reproduce the things he was trying to get me to reproduce. If I really try to isolate the act of speaking or there's other things like where you can slow it down so much that nobody will ever stutter if they're speaking this slowly. Um You know, so that's fine. I can reproduce that in a clinical context, but I must have at a very early age to sounded or decided that I sounded much more like a mo mo mo mo mo mo mo moron if I spoke so slowly, I mean, I don't mean to denigrate anyone from that is actually the preferred technique and, you know, if you have to talk like that, that's great. But for me, you know, my mind is just like I was, I, I was, it was absolutely excruciating. And so, you know, as soon as I, I, I, I could reproduce these tech, tech, these techniques, but then as soon as I actually had something to say, I would just talk the way I always did. So that was my first experience. And then I don't think I ever, I don't, I don't think I tried speech therapy again until I was maybe in early high school. But I did go to an event in New York with Martin uh Martin for I think was the name and uh I went to one of the conferences and it was super expensive and it was like, it like promised this like 90 whatever something percent success, success, success rate. And um um and it was like about passive breathing techniques or something like that. And you're like, they try you to breathe through a tube. And then I it was like, basically all about breath flow. And because, because he, he had found that a block is caused by um by the, by the, by a locking of the vocal cords, which of course we now know it's caused by a number of things.

It's not only that, that's one kind of a block, but anyway, you know, it, I tried it in the workshop and I could I could again reproduce the results in a clinical context. Um But as soon as I actually talked, like you were supposed to like sign a contract that you were gonna do all this homework and this practicing and there were like pages of worksheets and that sounds very exhausting. It was, it was, it was really challenging. And so, you know, obviously it didn't really help me a lot. Um So that was one other.

I, I also tried the, um, there was this thing you were supposed to put into your ear, which was again, really expensive, I think, called the speech the Speech Easy where it, where it gave you delayed auditory feedback. Like it was basically like having an E E E E echo on a tele telephone. And it, again, it was like they had claimed that they could cure stuttering. And, um, I tried it for, like, I don't know, maybe a week and I just, like, I had this thing in my ear and I couldn't even think, I couldn't think what I was gonna say. It was awful. Yeah. And then, and then I guess, like, probably my worst experience was I, maybe this was tied to this speech, this other speech therapist that I went to. But this other speech therapist that I went to in college was basically like, I mean, again, it was all about, it was all about what I now know is called, is called the fluency management techniques which, you know, there are a set types out of them and they work well for some people, they take a lot of practice, you know, again, it was like, I had to concentrate on the discrete physical action of speaking rather than trying to, trying to think of what I was going to say. And I always have things to say so and, but, but this, this particular speech therapist just kind of drilled into me, I guess, to motivate me that like how, how just deeply un un un, how deeply un, un, un, un uncomfortable, it made other people to have to listen to people stutter. Um And so, you know, you basically, like, she basically made it seem like I was doing, I was doing harm to everybody or brown meat just by stuttering.

Now aside from the fact that it was patently untrue because I had lots of friends who cared about me and like, I didn't, they didn't treat, act like I was doing injury to them. But, but also just, it's like, so, so dem moral, dem moral vising and discouraging, it actually made my uttering significantly worse because I got a, I got a comple about it, you know, like, like, I mean, of course, I was all, you know, I obviously was all ready, you know, as of dutter and embarrassed and afraid to talk in front of others. And, um, but then like, this just was just like, just the next, the next, the the of the, of the, of the, of the, the next level. So in many regards, my stuttering has actually became permanently worse after that. And I'm still kind of like having to, to process that.

Maya:

So it sounds like the first part of your speech therapy journey was more around fluency shaping and trying to hide the, the stutter.

Benedict:

A lot of the therapists you were seeing seemed to take the approach of fixing and it was more about how you appear to others rather than what you feel inside. And so I'm wondering if you can talk about the second part of your speech therapy. The journey when you started, you were exposed to more of the acceptance part of stuttering. I don't even recall how it occurred, but I got connected up with the American Institute for stuttering and got um got into that basketball, the basketball guy.

No, no, that was a different thing. You know, I actually had a phone call with um

Maya:

Michael Kidd Gilchrist. No, no,

Talia:

the basketball guy. You mean?

Benedict:

I, I, I actually had a phone call with Bill. Um Oh my gosh, I'm totally drawing a blank on his name, basketball star with the Boston Boston, the Boston Celtics. He's in the hall of fame. Uh It, it, it, it, it, it, it'll come back to me but um you know, I don't recall how I got connected up with, with, with, with a I, but, um, I did and I had a, like a 12 months of Skype, the, the therapy with Carl, with Carl, with Carl Carl Carl Herder who I know has been on your podcast, right? He's been on your podcast. Yeah. Um, and, um, that was really a life changer for me because it was, um, he, my first meeting with him, he, he asked me like, what do you want to do? I'm like, I guess I wanna like not stutter. He's like, well, ok, well, first you're always gonna be a stutterer. So there is nothing you can do about that. I was like, I was like, oh, like nobody had actually ever told me that. Um, and then, um, and then, then, then he said, like, you could, like, we, we, we could choose like you could try to, to, we, we could, we could have as our goal, the like to make it. So nobody will ever know that you, that, that you stutter. Um He said it might work, it'll take a lot of time, it'll take a lot of commitment on your part. Um And it still might not really work in the end.

He said, or I could work with you to help you be a better stutter. Um So I was like, well, what does that mean? Um, because like, if, you know, if, if it means like low commitment and not as much work on my end, then sign me up. Um So, um um and it basically just like all the things we're speaking about, about like a to advert ties, you know, I worked on some specific techniques and, and I know I forgot about them too and he said, you will, he said you'll forget about them when you wanna have, when you really have something to say. He's like, OK, that's fine. But it's more like to really be, to really own it and to be like, be, be, to be, be able to say that you are a stutterer and this is who you are and, and, and to not allow it to stop me from what I want to say and what I want to do. Um So that was really kind of the, the, that, that was the turning point for me and this is in some ways it's allowed, it's, that allowed me to do all the things that I'm doing right now. Um You know, it's allowed me to be fine about being on a podcast and speaking, speaking on a recording. And I, you know, I've done over now, I've, I've done this quite a lot on, on a lot of, in a number of different Conte texts and just, you know, it's just part, it's just, I, I've had to accept it as part of my identity. Um But it's very, it freed me a lot. So I'm really grateful for that. That was kind of like a happy ending to my speech therapy journey. My speech therapy journey.

Maya:

Wow. I think you might have tried at least all the speech therapy techniques and tools that at least I've heard of. I've only had the school, the public school speech therapy, which I don't remember. I probably just, just somehow erased it from my memory. Um And then middle school, I had speech therapy where it was just fluency and I was taught the same techniques of talking really slow breathing certain ways. And I never practiced the techniques because I was so like, this is so unrealistic, like, like I'm just going to say what I want to say because that's easier for me to do. Um And my mom would always ask me like, have you practiced your techniques? And I'm like, I'm like, um not really, oh, I know, I just, I would have absolutely had to lie and say I have, I'm sorry, mom.

Talia:

She'll probably be listening here because she knows I'm sure.

Maya:

Yeah, I'm sure too.

Talia:

OK. So all of this talk about being at workshops and speech therapists and stuff like that. So sweetie, what was it like for you? I've actually never asked you this before. What was it like or what has it been like for you to speak to someone else with a speech difference?

Benedict:

I mean, I'm embarrassed to say, but like, for a long time, it may be really on, it may be really on, on, on it may be really on, on, on, on, on un uncomfortable. Um, and I think, you know, I think it's because so much of my own inner experience, um, it's just basically, I mean, first of all, no, really hears themselves the way other people do. Um, you know, so, like, I don't stutter when I, when I think, um, and a lot of what I hear inside is kind of, I hear my, my thinking or I hear my self talk and, um, so when I actually, like, see somebody else who utters, it's like, oh, that's what, that's what I'm like. Um, and, and, you know, I actually don't have the, have the practice that you would expect, like, processing some, somebody who, you know, because all the speech that I hear in my daily life, fun, you know, on, on, on recordings or on TV, or podcast or anything, you know, it's like, it's mostly, it's all non stutterers. So, um, when I actually meet somebody who, you know, it's like, it's not the normal thing even for, for, for, for me. Like, I don't hear my, my, you know, so, so. Right. I, um, so I've actually, you know, uh, one of the, one of the ways that, you know, it's now not difficult for me because I've, I've, because at some point I was like, this is not ok, like, I have to be ok with other people too.

Um, um, but it's also helpful for me because it, you know, it, it, you know, because, well, I would also add to that. Um, when I hear others, it's also, it's like discouraging for me because it's like, wow, if it takes me, like, if it, if, like, I hear somebody that, that way and it's like, I'm basically who would even want, who would even want to, to, to listen to, to, to me. Um, so, you know, it's part part of it. It's like, it's like I have to expose myself to that. I have to. So I've, I've tried, I've tried to, to actually like, talk with other stutterers and talk with them about their stuttering and the big thing now, the big hu hu hu Hurdle, I've been working to get over is to listen to myself on recordings. Um which, um, which I think I, I know it's awful for important.

Talia:

That's the prescription, that's the prescription that I give to, to, to voice students too. And the kind of the kind of physical response to learn that learning singers have to, the sound of their own voice is, is a, it's a, it's like visceral disgust. It's really intense. Yeah. So we all have to, we all, we all have to learn to be ok with who we are and what we sound sound sound like. Yeah. And that is so funny that you mentioned that because I've been thinking about that more and more about how much more I love myself because I'm forced to hear myself talk all day long.

Maya:

It, it's really like, honestly, the best therapy I could have ever given myself because for so long, I've like my voice as ugly and disgusting and like, it was like one of the worst parts of myself and I just always felt like I sounded ugly and now I, like, I feel so much more confident in my voice and it's like, it's so just like, it's like a friend now because it's like, I literally listen to myself talk all day long and it's just like, oh, yeah, that's me. And, and one of my friends was like, helping me edit an episode and she's like, you have such a great n pr voice and I was just like, oh my God. So it really like the more you get comfortable with yourself and just experience those first few times where you feel uncomfortable listening to yourself sing or speech.

Talia:

It's just like, because it's, it's really so human to not like the way your recorded voice sounds like. Why is that? I don't know. Well, there's so many things that are going on just like acoustically.

We don't know, we don't recognize the sound of our own voices on recordings anyway, because the feedback we get is more bone conductivity and it's all muted and stuff like that. So what people see is something different than what we perceive anyway. But if there's already that level of like, I don't, I don't understand that sound that other people are hearing for someone without a speech difference. That then with a speech difference, there's that much more pressure on that experience. So doesn't surprise me at all that it would be that much more powerful therapy for you to do that incremental exposure and, and learn to hear all the beautiful sounds that other people hear in your voice because they're not doing the like, what's that? What's that one negative thing?

Benedict:

We're just, we're not, we're not doing that. Um So it's so nice that, you know, when you guys get to hear what we hear and what we like and it's beautiful. Yeah, it really is. So I myself, I identify as neuro diverse because I've come to like, experience that, you know how I kind of view my stutter is like, my brain is working faster than my speech can keep up with. And so that's kind of why I identify with a lot of neuro diversity and so Benedict you. Um I hope I'm not kind of exposing you but uh you are. Um

Maya:

And if I am just let me know, but we talked about you were diagnosed recently with a DH D and I was wondering if you can tell us about that intersectionality around like a DH D and stuttering and how it's made you rethink your relationship with your stutter.

Bendecit:

Yeah, I'd be glad to, no, that doesn't feel like you're like, you're outing me at all. I, I, I actually, I am weirdly kind of proud of it. Um, yeah, I've been basically telling every, I've been basically telling everyone I meet. It's like the first, it's like, hey, this is really cool. Um, well, people are celebrating with you too though. That's an interesting thing. They are. What's the sense of like?

Ok, I'm 42 now I may, may, may, maybe I should be looking at this. Um So yeah, I was recently di di diagnosed with, with, with AAA DH D. Um One of the things that really was like a surprise for me as soon as I started um on, on my meds was um was that I suddenly became like much more acutely aware of the actual act of speaking while I was speaking. It didn't mean that I couldn't think about what I was going to say. Um So it, and so like I, I actually suddenly feel like I can pay attention to the technique of speaking in a way that I couldn't my entire life. Um So I don't know where that's going to lead.

This is still relatively new for me. But um but what it made me, it made me wonder like whether uttering plus A DH D was one of like the magical combinations for a persistent adults daughter. I, I mean, I don't know, I don't know how much research there's been to to, to this, but at least for me it feels like, I mean, I, I mean, I, I try not, I, I don't have a goal and I try not to even articulate a goal that, like, I would someday like to not stutter. I actually don't want to not stutter. It's not like something that I feel like I need to change about myself. Um, but I, I would like to stutter be, be better. Um You know, there, there are certain things that I, you know, like that I do, like I was realizing like just in very like granular techniques, like I, I, I know that I do a lot of what I think it is called lip mod lip modification when I do. And that's a, a technique that's Dutter is sometimes adopt in order to kind of prevent a or to, to kind of kind of subconsciously kind of conceal it, but to also continue making sound. And it's probably because like as a kid, like if I had a long repetition or a long, prolonged, prolonged, prolonged prolongation or a complete lock, um You know, those would be the times that I would either I would get teased about it or I would get interrupted. And so, um you know, I did, I kind of came up with these, I guess these, these techniques that allowed me to continue making sound and continue holding the floor. Um So a AAA anyway, what being on medi being on medication has actually just made me more able to pay attention to how I'm stuttering to the kind of stuttering that I'm do, do, do, do, do, do doing. Um So I feel like maybe I can set some goals for myself now that I couldn't be before.

Like, maybe I'm gonna like, really deliberately do prolongations and not, and, you know, and, and allow myself to, to, to, to do repetitions and, and even to, to work in some like deliberate dos, which is a technique too, to like where you actually, you um you, you know, you set deliberately even when you don't have AAA block. Um because I'm, I'm finding, I'm suddenly able to do that and to think at the same time. Um So this is a very new thing for me, but I'm, I'm really, I'm really excited about it. Um You know, and if it doesn't change, I mean, it's like I get into a, a noisy room or I get into a higher pressure, speaking, said you situ situation or into a lot of circum, you know, where there's a lot of distractions. Um And it all goes out the window. But, but that's OK, I'm fine with that because then it's just, that's what I always to do. But, but I, I'm able to, I'm feeling more, I'm feeling more positive about just being able to give some more attention to it. Yeah. And I think for listeners who might, you know, be wondering, you know, about those connections and whether they've recently been diagnosed with a DH D or not.

I just think it's a really important part of the con, of the conversation because there's probably a lot of, um, there's probably a lot more connections to a DH D and stuttering than we think. And it's really, I mean, nobody ever brought it up with me. I mean, I mean, I guess somebody wanted to, to diagnose me with a DH D at the ninth grade and my English teacher was like, you know, she's like, she didn't want me to get, she was an advocate for me and didn't want me to kind of get at that time. Like, it would have been, like, side sidelined a bit. It, it's like, it's not the way it is now where it's like there's much more understanding. Um, you know, so, I mean, it's probably, I've had it, I mean, obviously I've had it my whole life.

It's just a medic. It's something in your brain you're born with. You know, it's so, it's, um, but, but nobody ever brought up in my entire, in my entire life that there could possibly be a connection between these two things. So I'd love to hear him. I'd love to learn more about it and here I'd be happy to, you know, I'd like to hear from somebody else if it's like, like some, some kind of a, some kind of a connection.

Maya:

Yeah. So if there are any listeners out there that this really resonates with or you want to, you know, you might have H D DC yourself or might be kind of on a similar journey. Just let me know. And I'd be happy to connect you with Benedict because um yeah, it's, it's easy to be isolated in these sorts of situations and um yeah, tall and Benedict. Thank you so much for being on Proud Stutter.

Benedict:

It's been such a wonderful conversation. It's really been wonderful to talk with you. I'm really, I'm really, really grateful that you, that you invited us to come on. And, um, I'm a huge fan of what you're doing. I think this is really the work that you're doing for, for all of us, both for deers and non deers is really important to, just to, to, to try to tell these, tell these stories and to reframe the in some, some way. So, um, but that, so thank you.

Talia:

Yeah, I, I want to say Maya that, um, when I first met Benedict, I, I was struck by how eloquent he was partly because I felt like he really chose his words very carefully. Um, but I, I do, I do believe, um, for, you know, those, those of you who are listening, who are stutters, I do believe that, that it's possible that we need to listen to you speak. Um, almost maybe more than we need to listen to other people speak right now and that the experience of, of what it's like to be a stutterer and, and to have all these things that you want to express verbally and be discouraged from it that puts power behind those things. And, um, just as someone without us, this particular difference, um who loves to listen to someone who stutters, um, I'd love to listen to more of you

Maya:

and that's it for this episode of Proud Stutter. This episode of Proud Stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkoc. Our music was composed by Augusto Deni and our artwork by Mara Ezekiel and Noa Chupkov. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at w w w dot proud stutter dot com and if you like the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast. Want to leave us a voicemail, check out our show notes for the, the number to call in. More importantly, tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you.