De-stigmatizing Stuttering & Incarceration (Part 2)

Transcript

Jay Jordan:

So now I'm having all these conversations ever since I got back and from sharing my story about stutteriThen when I got out and it was told no for three years, it moved and was homeless, like, you know, that could have broke somebody. But the way I responded to it was like a level of resilience. And I do think that the basis of all of this was growing up with a debilitating stuttering problem and being able to be resilient with that because it's so hard to be a kid and not be able to articulate yourself. That's how you gain friends. That's how you figure out if you're valued or not. And being able to like, like rise above that, I think is the core reason why I'm able to stand here and talk in front of millions of people and inspire folks and be the CEO of the largest, one of the largest advocacy organizations in the country that requires me to speak on a daily basis. So the record part for me is manageable to deal with because I've dealt with a stuttering problem my entire life. So when people ask me like, you know, Jay, you talk about these barriers and you, but you still smile. And I'm like, you don't know what I went through.

Maya Chupkov:

I'm Maya Chupkov and I'm a woman who stutters. Welcome to Proud Stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it, one conversation at a time. Welcome back to Proud Stutter. I'm Maya Chupkov and I'm a woman who stutters. Welcome back to Proud Stutter. Today, I am joined by Jay Jordan, a person who stutters and the CEO of an organization that aims to move away from the stigma that has been associated with having a criminal record. My guest co-host is Jesse Vasquez, leader of Friends of San Quentin News. Both men have experienced life incarcerated and are now dedicating their lives to transforming the criminal justice system. I've been so excited to get these two guys on the pod. It's been a long time coming and I am just so excited to dive in.

Welcome, Jay and Jesse. Thanks for having me.

So Jay, first I wanna talk about how we got connected. So I had watched you on John Stewart and I was just blown away and I was just mesmerized by everything you said. And so after the episode, I was like, hey, I need to just tell this person how much he had an impact on me. And so I just wrote you a random LinkedIn message. Didn't think you would, one, accept my friend request and two, respond. And then, and I didn't even mention stuttering, but then you had mentioned it in your response and I was just flabbergasted. So here we are and I am so excited to also have Jesse Vasquez, who is my friend here in the Bay Area and I met him through some random group we were in online and we just bonded right away. And what really resonated with me and what Jesse does is he's really trying to lift up the voices of those who are incarcerated or who have been incarcerated. So yeah, let's get into it. Jay, let's start with you. So you were born and raised in Stockton and how was stuttering talked about in your family, if that all?

Jay:

Yeah, so Stockton is like every other kind of American sized city. I say American size because LA and New York are not American sized cities. My parents, my mom's an engineer by trade and my dad's a pastor by trade. Now they're since retired, and I grew up in middle-class America and like any other kid, and I don't talk about this a lot, right? So, there's the family dynamic and they're outside the family, right? The reason I hung around the people I hung around with because they didn't judge me for my stutter. Because if you think like they felt like they had were imperfect. And so I hung around folks who looked like me, black folks. There were a lot of black folks in my neighborhood at all. I hung around black folks and they didn't judge me, right? Not one of my friends were like Jay Stutters, like nah, it was none of that. It was just like, they're all Jay right there. So, and that in turn had me around that element. They weren't bad, but the element just like, you get into it at an early age, you get to smoking and drinking at an early age, it never ends well. And I got into it at an early age and that was just, it wasn't like anything that was uncharacteristic, unrealistic for a person who starts to drink and smoke has went down the wrong path. I mean, for my family, it was never a problem. My sister, they called her my translator, right? You're like, she used to translate for me. And so that was, my family's always been supportive, like 100% of the time, they've been extremely supportive and that has really helped me throughout my life, especially when I was a kid, my family has been there through it all.

Maya:

That's really great to hear that your family was so supportive of you. So ever since I saw you on the Jon Stewart show, I've been listening to like your Instagram lives, following you on Instagram and listening to some of your podcast interviews. And I rarely hear you stutter, like every once in a while I hear it. And so my question is, like, how do you see, how have you seen your stutter evolve over time?

Jay:

So I've been stuttering forever, right? It's like my little friend I have in my pocket. And it's not something I talk about a lot. My family knows, everybody, my family knows, my wife is like, she knows my kids, they have a slight stutter. Well, my oldest one, he kind of grew out of it now, my youngest one is starting it. And so it's so cute, he sounds like daddy. And it really gets bad when I'm frustrated or I'm excited. If I get really, really, really excited, you're gonna hear it, you're gonna hear it. And there's certain words, obviously, that trip us up. So I like maneuver, it's like an obstacle course. I'm like, oh, not going there, oh, not going there. So if you see me looking up, it's because I'm looking for it, right? I'm like, okay, let me make sure how I respond to this question doesn't trip me up. And especially if I'm really intentional, trying to be really intentional about what I say, I wanna be able to articulate myself in a way that is very clear and people don't get caught up on the stutter, right? But early on, it was bad. So I had one of those debilitating stuttering where I would go into like really just like, you know, into it and that lasted for a long time. I mean, probably like halfway through elementary, so much so that they put me in speech classes, it was so traumatic. And the speech class was right in the library. So all the kids will go into the library and I would have to go into speech class, into a little door, in a little room. And I was like, oh my God, oh, you know. And so it lasted for a long time. I think in middle school was when I started to slow down. There was this angel I used to go to school with and I never had a chance. I knew I couldn't have a chance with her, but there was one day that I was gonna ask her to do my Valentine. And I was walking to school, I lived like a half a mile from school and me and my sister, I'm the last of eight. And so the closest one to me, she's one grade above me, we were walking to school, but I was so nervous, I was trying to practice my words and she was like, come on, we gotta go. And so she left me, so I'm walking to school by myself. I get there kind of late and I was gonna ask her before school went in because I didn't want anybody else to ask her, you know, it's Valentine's Day. And I got there, everyone had went in and I'm like, I'm so down, you know. And then I see her car pull up and she gets out and I swear she like descended from the heavens, she was floating. She was floating on the car. And then I walked up to her and I just started stuttering really, really, really bad. And she said, slow down. And that was the moment where I realized like, oh, you know, slow down. Because somebody I really admired was telling me to slow down, it's okay basically, like I accept you, it's okay. And that was really kind of the catalyst for me slowing down and being able to articulate myself without the convulsions. And that was like in third grade, you know. And then in middle school, I began to slow down a lot more than in high school. And, you know, the rest is just like, you know, I've learned how to navigate it.

Maya:

That is one of the cutest stuttering stories I think I've ever heard. So thanks for sharing that. So switching gears a little bit, I'm just so curious how you prepared to be on the John Stewart, because as someone who stutters and being on such a like big show, talking about such an important issue, like I would have just been like so frigging nervous. And you also do all these speaking engagements like keynotes, you're on Instagram Live a lot, you're just out there all the time. And so how do you do it as someone who stutters?

Jay:

I'm so scared before every time, like literally if I'm doing an Instagram Live or anything, like I was nervous doing this, my palms are sweaty, I'm nervous now. It's like, it is nerve wracking. It's like nerve wracking to some of the most. So I'm a Pisces, right? I was born March 13th. So I am a introverted heart, but you would never know it. You're like, oh, this guy's so outgoing and he's always around people, but it takes so much out of me to be present because I'm an empath. I feel people's energy, I feel their pain, I feel their joy, I feel their anxiety. And that's why I lean into the work that I do. That's why I'm in the field I am. So when I speak, it's like I'm feeling all that stuff right here. And I'm like, oh my God, I gotta speak in front of, and I remember going home when they first reached out, they were like, oh, on background, we wanna talk to you. I'm like, okay, great. Background, I could talk hours and hours about this stuff on background, in the background. And then they're like, oh, how about coming on the show? I'm like, okay. My heart's pounding because I didn't want to be like a meme or whatever. I just didn't wanna, I had so much important stuff to say. And I'm like, ah, I tend to, when I talk about this stuff, when I talk about having a record, when I talk about government spending, when I talk about that stuff, I've read so much about it that I have so much stuff just bustling out of my scenes. I wanna just tell it. And that's when I start stuttering, I get excited and I'm like, I do not wanna do that on Jon Stewart. Please, I don't wanna do it on Jon Stewart. My team, they know, they're like, okay, Jay's gonna go crazy and it's fine. But the world doesn't know me. So I'm like, okay, well, and I remember, just in particular, Jon Stewart, I had all these stats in my head. And it was, there's like a meme out there where like a bunch of stats and the guy stared into nothingness or the bunch of like, geometry and algebra. Like that was me. I'm like, 11 billion, 11 trillion, 900,000, I get up to all these numbers and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna stutter. Like I know I'm gonna stutter. I'm going through a wild convulsion. Everyone's gonna see it. I'm gonna be a meme. It's okay, fine. But I just pray. I pray before every time I speak, I pray before this podcast, God give me the strength, give me wisdom, give me the understanding, give me authenticity. Let me touch somebody that hears my voice. Amen, right? And I just put it in God's hands, you know? And it served me well. You know, I've not had a episode in front of a large crowd, knock on wood. But if I did, you know, I've been doing it for so long, I would just pivot and tell the story of how I got to start stuttering. And that has been kind of my ace in the hole. So, you know, I'm telling the world now, if I'm on a stage and I start stuttering, I'm gonna backtrack and go down a rabbit hole about stuttering and what it means. So I think it's so important for the world to understand that there's millions of people out here that, you know, have a stutter and it's not because we are, you know, mentally deficient or that we don't understand the world or we're not intelligent or any of that stuff, you know? It's just something that we have. And, you know, I think for me, it makes me more grounded in who I am and more empathetic to people that may have something that could be considered imperfect, you know?

Maya:

That is so well said. And I think, you know, having that in your back pocket of like, okay, if I stutter, I do have this segue. So I think that probably helps take a lot of the pressure off. So I might even try that. But I wanted to give space to Jesse to see if he wanted to respond to anything we've been talking about.

Jesse Vasquez:

I think I find this interesting, right? I think me and Jay, we have some things in our lives that intersect, you know, I'm also born March 12th. So we have similar personalities and it's interesting to hear, you know, how you learn to navigate and the discipline that it requires. And I think I'm interested in just like hearing a little bit about that part, right? Like knowing that you had something that, you know, distinguished you from other folks, right? It's always interesting to see that in the carceral system, you know, like we're all the same, we all wear blues, we all wear like our, you know, state issued stuff, right? But we always have like those personal traits that make us unique amongst everybody else, you know? And it's, was there ever a time that you can think like within the carceral system where it was like, apart from the riots and the tension that comes with that and that type of excitement, where you felt like, you know what, like, man, I can't convey my thoughts accurately right now, because now you're very articulate after years of cultivating that skill set, you know? But in those moments of growth, you know, and, you know, kind of like that purging process of incarceration, you know, what was that like for you?

Jay:

I wasn't really nice in prison. I didn't like have a, you know, it was just a different time, you know? And I had to be something that I'm not proud of inside. For the first like three or four years, it was, you know, it was tough, right? Because I was in Solano. It was one of the most rocking level threes in the state of California. And so I had to be something that, you know, I'm really not proud of. And so I think that that inoculated me from, you know, folks, you know, saying anything about my stutter, right? And so that's the, you know, and not once had anybody said anything when I was locked up, right? Because of that threat that always exists while you're inside, which was like, okay, if I say something, I mean, if you say something about a person's shoes in there, and it goes off the wrong way, right? It's not gonna be a problem. And so like prison for me was, because it was such a violent time that I lived in prison for the first three or four years, you know, that wasn't a problem for me because it was always this threat of, if I say something to this guy about a stutter, am I gonna have to deal with him on the flip side? You know, now then the next three or four years, you know, I really made the shift. So in between that time I spent two years in solitary confinement and was really there where I think like when I quieted my soul and was able to go deeper, I mean, there was a question that was asked of me, you know, this was 2008, I was in the hole that I ended up getting, you know, something happened on the yard and the group of us was implicated. We all went to the hole, you know, even though we weren't the one doing the act in there, if you're affiliated, it's like, you're going to the hole. You know, I find myself doing two years in a hole and I didn't touch anybody. And so, you know, when I was in there, when I got to Tehachapi, which is like 50 miles east of Bakersfield, this guy was banging on my wall, boom, boom, boom, boom, and you know, you don't bang on the wall, you know, you just don't do that, right? So unless you know the person or try to get their attention, so the guy's banging on my wall for two days straight and I'm like, yo, so I get in the vent and I'm like, yo, what do you want? You know, and he's like, who are you? You know, I told him, you know, my name and where I was from, you know, and he said, that's what you are, that's who you are. And I'm like, this guy's nuts, right? And he's like, and he starts saying my name, J-O, J-O, J-O, and he sings it and sings it and sings it and I was like, yo, this guy's like making me crazy and then I begin to ask myself, well, who am I? Right, like who, you know, and so I'm like, yo, I'm a black man, I'm strong, I'm this, I'm that, I'm this and all those were just adjectives, you know, and I couldn't figure out who I was and there was a time where I'm like, you know what? I don't know who I am and I just don't know because it's who I am right now, all those words, all those adjectives got me to this point, that's not who I wanna be, right? You know, my parents, my nieces and nephews, my brothers and sisters, like they're out there living and I'm, you know, the schmuck inside jail that's actually inside a hole, right? Like what am I, that's not who I wanna be. So I've made it a point to actually get to, you know, like build out a plan for myself and that was the moment and I think really like the crossroads of stuttering and being incarcerated, like that was the moment where it was like, oh, there's some stuff inside of me that I'm just not aware of, you know? And I didn't talk for a long time, right? I didn't talk for like months, you know? And I would write a lot. I didn't talk so much, they thought I was a little off, they were like, oh, you know, Jordan's a little off. I just wouldn't say anything. I wouldn't say anything at all because I was just so like introspective at that moment that, and then after I got off my little Zen trip, right? The stuttering had really subsided and you know, I think there like a switch in me that happened where it was like, oh, I have a goal in life. I think when you go into that purpose, right? Lean into the purpose and you like really focus on kind of what you wanna be and you're like, oh, people always used to tell me, oh, you got something to say. And I'm like, no, how can I have something to say when I stutter, you know?

Jesse:

Yeah, no, that's definitely very insightful, you know? And I think sometimes, especially coming out with a record, you know, we have this sense of, at least I did, right? Come out with this sense of insecurity that the world's gonna look at you as less than because of the crime that you committed or the decades that you spent behind those prison walls. And I don't know, have you found it to be a little bit different leaning into the work and then actually like you defining the work instead of the work defining you? You know, has that given you like not just a sense of identity, but taking that purpose and actually molded you a little bit better?

Jay:

Yeah, for sure, like it has, but you know, I always think about the diamond in the mountain, right? I had this epiphany when I was locked up and I'm like, can I have a diamond in the mountain? Right? I wouldn't do it as rabid all about how diamonds are made. I'm like, man, just imagine how many years it took for that diamond to be found and polished and valued and, you know, and then sold and now it's somebody's possession and they value it, right? Like, but that diamond was in the mountain under a lot of pressure for a long time before it even became a diamond. And then it stayed in there, you know, like for a long time, even before it was found. And when it was found, it went through a whole process, you know, before it was even sold and found a home. And sometimes I look at like, man, where am I at on that journey, right? Am I still in the mountain? Am I like being polished? Have I been found yet? Like, have I found a home? And at times it feels like I've have found a home and it's made a lot easier because I think about the journey so much. Like, where is my journey? Where did my journey begin? Where is it end? Like, where am I at? Have I found my enlightenment? Have I found my why this it, right? I'm always questioning that. I think that having a record and doing the work I mean, for me, the reason I've found, the reason I started out wasn't because I wanted to work for a nonprofit. Like who wants to work for a nonprofit? Like it's not something you grow up. What do you wanna do when you grow up? I wanna work for a nonprofit. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. My kids say that I'm like, no, but I did it out of necessity. Man, look, I was, man, I was told no, you know, I couldn't find jobs. They told me I couldn't be, like I wanted to be a barber and sell insurance and sell real estate. I had a whole plan, I had a whole plan. I had my whole food mapped out. And, you know, I was told no. I started my own program. The school district didn't wanna let me in. I mean, there's so much. I was homeless. I moved out of Stockton cause no one wanna hire me. You know, I moved to LA, was homeless for two months, sleeping in my car, you know, eating half a top ramen in the morning, half at night. Right, so, I mean, I went through it, you know, and all this was because I had a record. I couldn't find a house cause I had, I couldn't find an apartment cause I had a record. No one would hire me in Stockton cause I had a record. Even though I did three years of community work, even though I was like, when you Google some of the stuff we were doing in 2012 to 2014, it was transformative community work. We got American Red Cross Hero of the Year for our innovative program. We were painting trash cans, right? We were cleaning up slews, mentoring kids, you know. I worked for the congressman on his re-election campaign, but no one would hire me because I had a record. And when I moved to LA, it was the same thing. I was homeless. No one would rent to me cause I had a record. And so just imagine you're being told no, even though you served your time, even though you paid, I paid $12,000 in restitution. They garnered, like they did a bank levy on me. They garnered my wages, you know, like, and I'm like, you know what? I'm still going to thrive, you know. I'm still gonna smile. There's never been a day if I didn't laugh or smile or find joy, you know what I mean? Like, because all of that, like I practiced stoicism. All of that is just coming at me. And it's my reaction that dictates my reality, not the thing that I'm going through, you know. I was responding to being homeless, like, you know, well, hey, listen, at least I got to pay rent. You know, like that was my response. And people are like, yo, why are you so resilient? I'm like, because it's not what happens to you is how you respond to it. Things are going to happen is how you respond to it. I had a debilitating stuttering from age, whatever, to like when I was 12 years old, you know, like I didn't, it wasn't, it didn't stop me, you know, I made it through. Like I was in prison with a stuttering problem. That could have been disastrous. I could have been in a laughing stock and would have gotten fights every single day without how I responded to that, how I set myself up to say, you know what, like, you know, leave me alone, right? I was in a hole for two years, for two years in a hole away from my family, you know, but the way I responded to it was to go internally. Then when I got out and it was told no for three years, it moved and was homeless. Like, you know, that could have broke somebody. I could have been like, shouldn't be able to pass a substance abuse and mental health problem. But the way I responded to it with like a level of resilience. And I do think that the basis of all of this was growing up with a debilitating stuttering problem and being able to be resilient with that because it's so hard to be a kid and not be able to articulate yourself. That's how you gain friends. That's how you figure out if you're valued or not. That's how you like, you know, figure out if you're smart, like all self-confidence and being able to like, like rise above that. For me, I think is the core reason why I'm able to stand here and talk in front of millions of people and inspire folks and be the CEO of the largest, one of the largest advocacy organizations in the country that required me to speak on a daily basis, right? Like, you know, so the record part for me is easy, not easy, but it's manageable to deal with because I've dealt with a stuttering problem my entire life. So when people ask me like, how do you do this? You know, Jay, you talk about these barriers and you, but you still smile. I'm like, you don't know what I went through. Right? You know?

Maya:

You just listened to part one of our interview with Jesse and Jay. Our next episode of Proud Stutter will have part two. And then we will also be releasing a bonus episode with both part one and part two in the same episode with some bonus content because the interview was so long and I didn't wanna cut out any of it that I'm kind of doing something new. So if you want more, if you wanna listen to all the juicy details from that interview, we will be having that option in the coming weeks. Thanks so much for listening and see you next time. And that's it for this episode of Proud Stutter. This episode of Proud Stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by Augusto Diniz and our artwork by Mara Ezekiel and Noah Chupkov. If you have an idea or wanna be part of a future episode, visit us at www.proudstutter.com. And if you like the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast. Wanna leave us a voicemail? Check out our show notes for the number to call in. More importantly, tell your friends to listen too. Until we meet again, thanks for listening. Be proud and be you. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you.