Stuttering Through Law School and Advocating for Public Policy

Transcript

[00:00:00] It's, it's something I've recognized that like this gutter is part of, it is part of me. I'm not sure if I even want to hide it. Like I want to of course be as fluent as I can be, but I've understood that it's just not leaving me.

I'm Maya Chupkov, and I'm a woman who stutters. Welcome to Proud Stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it, one conversation at a time.

Welcome back to Proud Stutter. I'm your host, Maya Chupkov. Today, we have Kurt Kessler. Kurt is a [00:01:00] 31 year old class action attorney living in San Francisco, which is where I live for those of you who might not know that, but you probably do because I talk about all the time and he's a person who stutters.

Welcome Kurt to Proud Stutter. Thank you, Maya. Thanks for having me on the show. Happy to, uh, be here. So when did you first start noticing your Stutter. And how did it impact you as, as a young person? All right. So I started stuttering. I'm not exactly sure when, I just know it's been as long as I can remember.

So early childhood, in terms of growing up with a, It didn't really impact me in school all that much other than like the normal, um, just kids being kind of jerks and occasionally making fun of me, but I kind of worked past that. I was not really, um, shy in [00:02:00] terms of speaking up in class or anything like that.

I'd say when I hit puberty in earnest, the sputtering got a lot worse in terms of severity. So at that point, I still wasn't exactly shy about talking, but I started volunteering less, I guess. And then kind of went on from there. I might be sort of, I'm not going to say a unique, but lucky, I guess, in the terms of stuttering because I wasn't alone in my immediate community.

Um, well, I never knew her as a person whose daughter is my mom grew up with one, um, my uncle on her side, currently stutters and has for his entire life. Um, my cousins that are my grandpa, who I barely knew because he passed away when I was three [00:03:00] better. And perhaps most importantly, just because of. How, how, how much time I spent with them on my two younger brothers.

One has stuttered growing up and has mostly grown up, uh, grown out of it. And my youngest brother's still as a person who's daughter. So I had that sort of community with me to kind of help me through that process. And so were you all open about talking about your stutter to each other? I mean, I wouldn't, I mean, it's with my.

Not immediate family. I was a bit more open, but with my immediate family, it was less talking about it and more just like having a person there who understands what you're going through, just knowing it's not something that you're just, just like isolated about. So even if like we weren't talking about all the time, still kind of had that bond of us going through the same thing.

Yeah, that [00:04:00] must've been. Really nice to just not feel so alone in your experience. Cause that's, that's one of the biggest themes that a lot of people who stutter share is just their isolation and feeling like they're the only one in the world who stutters. Yeah, I mean, so I guess, so that's, I guess, probably said I was lucky just to have that.

Yeah. Very fortunate. And would you say, so how old are your, your, your brothers? And would you say like your stutters are similar or different? All right, um, I say, so my first younger brother, he is 27 about to turn 28. And His has almost completely passed him. I'd say it's not similar at all. My youngest brother is, uh, he just turned 25.[00:05:00]

I'd say we have a similar style of stuttering in that it's a lot of blocks compared to Other kinds, I'd say mine is probably more severe, but it's pretty similar. Interesting. Um, let's talk about your, what you do professionally. Um, I don't, I don't know a lot of lawyers who stutter. We had one on the podcast recently, um, a woman who stutters, who, um, Her focus was like immigration law and like helping people with their their visas.

Um, and so you are a class action lawyer. Um, and so, so yeah, I love to, if you could talk about what it's like being a lawyer who stutters. Um, how was, law [00:06:00] school for you? Um, and do you like is your, um, and like, yeah, like what your day to day looks like? So I guess I'll start off in law school, because that's kind of the one thing that unifies all.

The attorneys after law school, we quickly kind of, uh, branch out into all of our separate specialties, but every attorney has sat there as a first year of law student, a one L, and just been worried out of their mind that they're going to get cold called in. Criminal law or towards your civil procedure because law school is not like, um, other education and that it's almost entirely based around the Socratic method, Socratic method essentially relies on a dialogue between the professor and [00:07:00] class to kind of help the entire class learn.

So I kind of set the stage. Um, on the second day of law school, I was in my criminal law class. And the first, in the first day, we all had to fill out note cards of where we went to college, where we're from, our favorite school. Sports teams, our favorite musicians, our favorite, um, movies and provide that to the professor.

So on the second day of class, we have a criminal law case we had to read beforehand about a crime that happened in North Carolina. So the professor immediately just goes, Mr. Kessler, so I've seen this card that you went to Duke University. My brother went there. I hate Duke and everything about it, so just be aware of that.

I'm like, okay, thanks. It's like, all right, so next person. So I like, [00:08:00] it's, it's, it's just, That was my introduction to law school and being called on. And it just shows how kind of nerve wracking it is that you're basically at the whims of the professor. And I'm tying this back into the stuttering here. I mean, like you'd think I'd be nervous about getting called on and stuttering in front of the class, but in a sense, I wasn't really because I was more nervous about just the fact of getting called on and having to get the answer right and not, I guess, being shown up by a professor in front of everyone.

Have you seen Legally Blonde? Legally Blonde, yes. That's one of my favorites. So you know that scene where she gets called on in class and doesn't know the answer at all and like it starts essentially tearing up in and leaves class. [00:09:00] Yes. Yeah, that's very, very realistic and that's why I like to joke and call legally blinding.

Or movie. Oh my God. Have you seen that happen? Oh yeah. Yep. Wow. It's, it's scary. And so I guess the fear of stuttering was overpowered by the fear of just being wrong, I suppose. Wow. So you, yeah, so you were more fearful of being wrong than being, than stuttering openly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even with like, I hadn't never met any of these people before I started law school, I was still just more worried about not being embarrassed for something I couldn't control.

in the form of like having the like understanding like the case and not not having done my [00:10:00] work and something I couldn't control and I stutter. I love that mindset. It's kind of like you're more focused on You know, making sure you're prepared for class, then you're stutter and that actually probably helps save you energy so you can focus more on preparing.

Yeah, exactly. Like, just, just showing that I, that I kind of belonged there in spite of everything, I guess. Just that I was able to be prepared for class completely independent of anything else. Did your stutter have any impact on like what specialty you chose, um, or like what made you want to go into the like focus area you're in now in law?

So I, um, I wouldn't say my stutter necessarily impacted it. Um, I, like I graduated law school, [00:11:00] not quite sure what I wanted to do, which is pretty unique, I guess, for Boston's like most folks have their paths planned, like the summer after, after their second big year, that's when they have their internships, but I didn't really, it wasn't necessarily because my, my That are even though there are plenty of like legal specialties where you don't really have to talk to people outside of your office, but, um, I just happened on class action law and I've been enjoying it since then.

I've been practicing for close to five years now. And what, for those who may not know a lot about that, um, what, like, what is. Um, like, like what [00:12:00] are some of the, the, the cases like that you work on and, um, and yeah, like what is your day to day look like? Okay, so class action law is, um, it's a type of lawsuit where.

A group of, of, uh, plaintiffs merged together in a class to take on a corporation or some other large company because their individual cases. Aren't worth it to pursue on their own, but when taken in the agri kit, it's actually, uh, worth it. So it's in a sense, the only way for people to sue companies for certain issues, because otherwise it's just futile.

So like an example of some cases I've worked on, um, one case involved a [00:13:00] retailer. Um, Uh, twisting their sheets at an incorrect thread count, like the sheets were just at 1200 thread count, and, um, they were actually like 180. And so we represented consumers in an effort to. essentially make their money back and to stop that company from doing that again.

And some of the higher profile class actions out there, um, there's one going on against Helps, which is a Dutch company that manufactures, um, medical And there, um, they were selling CPAP, uh, machines that ended up causing cancer. So it can range from [00:14:00] like mild consumer issues to much more serious issues.

Yeah. What comes to my mind is the movie. Aaron Brockovich. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, yeah, that's pretty high up there. It's like very serious. So, um, and do you find yourself having to like talk on the phone a lot or speak in like high pressures situations? Um, so I, I have had to go to court, which is always, which is always interesting.

I've not had a chance to take like the lead in an argument. I have gone to court on my own, like the story of like our, our case on my shoulders, which is pretty nerve wracking. It, it, it's, it can be, um, in terms of like the [00:15:00] stutter, it's, it's another one of those situations where I'm trying to think less of my stutter and more about the task that's in front of me, but that can come and go with the results, uh, there, but it's just, it's also, I, I wanna show that I in court that I'm.

I'm there because I'm a good attorney, not because I am just showing that I go with law. Courts are, um, pretty often over Zoom or over the phone these days, and it's never as intimidating just talking to someone through a computer screen as it is, um, actually being there in a court room with the judge elevated over you, looking down on you, ready to rule on your case.

So before we started recording, you talked about like. There are some situations where you [00:16:00] find you're more fluent than others. And you had mentioned Samuel L. Jackson, can you tell us like, um, more, more about how you find your stutter in different situations? Samuel L. Jackson has a certain, so he has had a lifelong stutter and how he avoids it.

Is, he likes to say the word as often as possible, and that's how he keeps his fluency. And I can kind of have a, um, similar blur, um, way of not, I'm gonna, I'm not like, I'm not gonna say managing my stutter, but there are certain situations where I stutter o less, like when I'm sort of speaking a reflexive ly, I don't stutter like.

As an example, if I'm [00:17:00] in the car and I'm sort of talking to myself about how bad other drivers are, I'm not going to stutter and a very famous one in my family and in my circle is, um, I'm a very passionate sports fan and I like to yell at the TV and if I'm yelling after a particularly bad call, that's a shitty call ref what the F I will never.

Ever have a disfluency in that and I haven't never understood why other than maybe saying it's speaking a reflexive complete and then perhaps like the most Interesting time where I don't stutter is I mentioned about the car, but just whenever I'm talking only to myself, I will never have a dis fluency in that.

And in recent times, I found that's extended to like, um, if I'm [00:18:00] making a voice recording, I can like, like, even if I'm going to send it to someone else, I've sort of tricked my mind, I guess, to thinking that's only for my ears. So I won't Dutter in the process of making that a recording, even though if I'm talking like to the person that I'm sending that recording to and like normal setting, I will cutter.

So, wow, that's so interesting. Yeah, I can't explain it, but it's just. A weird phenomenon there. Yeah, I feel like there's so many different ways we all like, find that works for our fluency, um, in these different ways. So that's, that's super interesting. I, I, I am very, I think I can relate when I'm talking to myself, I usually don't stutter, but, but when I do do voice memos, Yeah, I think it's [00:19:00] still I think I still stutter.

So maybe I just have to like play more of a mind game with myself when I'm doing that. Yeah. So something that my speech therapist had me do, I should shout out Maddie, um, is she Had me basically spend a week just making like voice memo after voice memo and just immediately it leading the, the, the demo afterwards just to kind of trick myself into thinking like, oh, if I'm sending it like it, it's not going out to any one.

But then. Apple has a, um, a recovery section for your voice.

So they still existed. Oh my gosh. Okay. Interesting. So then I was able to play them [00:20:00] for other people just like, Oh, that's me. Stuttering at all. Talking for like three minutes straight. Wow. So yeah. Wow. That's super interesting. Um, yeah, and shout out to Maddie. I, I met her at a Proud Stutter event. So I know you do obviously around stuttering now with Michael Kidd, Gilchrist.

Can you talk about your, your, your, your journey with stuttering advocacy and, um, how it's evolved and what you're up to now around that? I'm more of a

bit character in this. Most of it's on him, but I'm, It's started, um, this was 2021. Um, Joe Biden had just been elected and I'm sure most of you know, um, he is a [00:21:00] person who's better is also. And so my dad wrote an op ed in the wall street journal talking about Joe Biden's daughter. And he referenced me in it.

And my, um, liberty for nuts. Duttering while watching sporting events call. He's sort of censored the language. So it was print appropriate. And then Michael Gilchrist was aware of that. And he eventually reached out to my dad to get connected with him and then said he wanted to. Meet me more. So we started talking off of that.

It's been three years and we became friends over that process. Um, and he has this nonprofit called changing impact where he's made it his mission to improve [00:22:00] outcomes for people who stutter and just general education. Because it's something that people will experience. And see others do, but not quite understand.

So I got involved with that, just helping him out with some ideas, some writing, giving him someone to bounce things off. I started to get more involved on this past, uh, this summer, because he's recently started to, um, to, to, uh, try and make his mark politically and state legislatures. Like, um, this spring, he.

He managed to, to, uh, introduce and pass a bill in a state where he went to college, Kentucky, [00:23:00] about enshrining, um, healthcare for, et cetera, into a law there, and it was wildly successful. It was a bipartisan effort in a very divided state. And he's working on something in. Pencil thing also, but he said he was coming to Sacramento to talk to politicians there, and he asked me if I wanted to come join him there and talk to politicians with him.

And so I said, yes, drove out there and I got to witness and help my own way, just politics in action. Wow. That's awesome. And how many people did you end up meeting with? It was five separate legislators and then [00:24:00] a couple chiefs of staff for legislators. Wow. That is amazing. Um, and yeah, anything to do with California advocacy, I'm like totally, totally up for it.

And I think there could even be, you know, it could be a good, Um, opportunity to also like just build more of a coalition around stuttering with other, other stakeholders too, to get them to care more about stuttering. And so something that I, that I experienced there that I, um, that I found very powerful was that.

Basically, after every single meeting, um, either the legislator themselves or a member of their staff either said, hey, I stutter or hey, I like X person in my [00:25:00] family stutters, it's, it's, it's, it's very widespread in a way that most people don't necessarily understand. And that kind of shows the rallying community behind that because there's someone in every office who understands what's going on, understands the stakes of it and understands why it's so important to get legislation passed about it, which I found very powerful.

Yeah, wow, that that is extremely heartening to know that. You had that experience. Um, I think changing policy is just such an important part of like, not only helping people who stutter, but just raising awareness because if a policy were to ever pass in California, which [00:26:00] it sounds like we're on that.

That path right now, like, you know, there'll be just more awareness about it. And the fact that Michael, you know, he is such a great role model for so many, and like, like by sharing his story, he's like helping a lot of people. Absolutely. It's, he left. A pro basketball career focused on it, which I think is extremely noble of him.

Yeah. And I don't even know that much about him. Like, yeah, I've read articles, but I'm sure there's a lot of layers to him that you don't really know until you meet him and start working with him. So. And so I, I realized I didn't say it, um, but like the chief chief issues in California is that, um, Medi [00:27:00] Cal, which is the, which is the, uh, public health care in California, particularly for low income individuals does not often curse.

speech therapy if it's not attached to like another independent, uh, prison. Like it'll cover speech therapy if it's attached to say neurological recovery after a stroke, but it won't, it'll like, you'll have a claim rejected for speech therapy just for a person who stutters. Wow. Interesting. So it's probably a different context in every state.

And because California has its own healthcare program, what you'd pass, let's say in Kentucky is probably different than what you pass in California. Yeah. [00:28:00] It's all very, it's, it's all very targeted to the specific. Issue that state is, is, uh, important. And how long, like when did this all happen? This was at the end of June.

And were there others with you or is it just you two? Yeah, so, um, it, it was, uh, myself, him, um, his. Publicist, uh, Kristen, who is incredible. And then this junior in college at UC Irvine named Dabin and his mom. And Dabin actually runs a nonprofit for increasing access to. Beach therapy for people in his hometown of [00:29:00] Bakersfield.

He's also an incredible, incredible person. Well, Kurt, thanks so much for being on proud stutter. It was so awesome getting to talk to you. And I so look forward to doing advocacy with you next year and beyond. And. Working together more. So thanks again. Thank you. Um, um, um, uh, um, thanks for having me on. And I would be, I would pick myself if I didn't say, thanks for also being such an incredible advocate for this community.

I'm sure your podcast helps like so many people who are That are realized that they're not both on and what they're going through. So. [00:30:00] And that's it for this episode of Proud Stutter. This episode of Proud Stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by Augusto Diniz. And our artwork by Mara Ezekiel and Noah Chupkov.

If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at www. proudstutter. com. And if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast. Want to leave us a voicemail? Check out our show notes for the number to call in. More importantly, tell your friends to listen too.

Until we meet again, thanks for listening. Be proud and be you.